DEPARTMENT OF STATE Memorandum of Conversation
Date: April 18, 1949
Subject: ---
Participants: Count Carlos Sforsa, Italian Foreign Minister Secretary of State Mr. Rusk Mr. Hickerson
Copies to: S, G, NEA, EUR, Amembassy Rome, SWE
Count Sforza, the Italian Foreign Minister, came in to see me at his request at 3:30 this afternoon. He opened the conversation by saying that he would be returning to Europe in the next day or so and that he wished to have a very confidential conversation with me before his departure from this country. He said that although he had full confidence in the Italian Ambassador, he wished to see me without any other Italian official present.
Count Sforza said that he was deeply troubled over the Italian colonies problem. He said that he had had frank talks with Mr. Dulles who was sympathetic and understanding of the Italian difficulties. He said that he had talked to Hector McNeil who was frank but not sympathetic and had said no to everything which Count Sforza had suggested. He went on to say that some of his Latin American friends had come to him with claims of a two- thirds majority for Italian trusteeship for Tripolitania and that McNeil seemed certain that the UK could get a two-thirds majority for Cyrenaica whatever happened to the other colonies. Count Sforza said that he had refused to look at rival claims for certain two-thirds majorities on any of these questions and that one thing he had learned about politics was that nobody could be sure how a vote would turn out until the ballots had been counted.
Count Sforza said that he had identified himself with the forces in Italy favoring the closest possible ties with the west and the gradual unification of the free countries of Europe, including Italy. He said that he had taken the lead in this movement including, of course, Italy's participation in the North Atlantic Pact and the Council for Europe. He said, moreover, that he had personally sponsored the economic union between Italy and France. He said that all of these things stand on their own merit and are wholly independent of the question of the disposition of the former Italian colonies. He added, however, that he had felt, and he had no doubt many Italians supporting these measures had felt, that Italy's playing such a role would tend to result in a more sympathetic consideration of Italian claims in connection with the colonies.
Count Sforza went on to say that he had been much discouraged by the discussions in New York and that he had to ask himself if he had made a mistake in judgment for which he should be prepared to assume responsibility. He said that the Italian reaction to what they would regard in Italy as an unfair settlement of the colonial question would be very badly received, and that somebody would have to assume responsibility for this. He said that deGasperie must continue as Prime Minister and that he had been turning over in his mind whether or not in the light of this that he, Count Sforza, should not resign if the colonial question is settled on such a basis that Italian public opinion cannot support it.
I commented at once that I was unaware of any mistakes that Count Sforza had made in connection with these matters; that as he correctly said, his support of the measures which he had mentioned was in Italy's interest on the merits of the respective matters and had no connection whatever with the colonies. I told him that I hoped that he would not therefore feel called upon to resign because of any solution of the colonial problem which the Italian people did not like. I went on to say that there were enormous difficulties in connection with the problem of former Italian colonies and that we and other members of the General Assembly had found it difficult to determine what the final solution should be. I said that we understood the Italian interest in this whole problem but that we were conscious of considerations on the other side and of arguments against the views entertained by the Italian Government. I added that in Tripolitania, for instance, we have received information which makes us frankly doubtful whether Italy could assume the responsibility of administering authority without resistance on the part of the native population and perhaps bloodshed. Count Sforza said that he had no doubt that if there could be a fair plebiscite in Tripolitania and Eritrea a majority of the population would prefer to see Italy as administering authority.
Count Sforza asked for a frank expression of my views as to what is likely to happen at this session of the General Assembly. I replied that my answer would necessarily have to be a speculative one but it appears to me that the most probable result is a postponement of a decision. Count Sforza said that from Italy's standpoint this might be a good idea but that in his opinion it would be a considerable blow at the prestige of the UN.
During the course of the conversation, Count Sforza said that without the approval of the Italian Cabinet he had told both Mr. Dulles and Mr. McNeil that, in answer to the Ethiopian argument that Italy's presence in Eritrea and Somaliland might again be a pincer force against Ethiopia, he personally would favor Italy's renouncing any claim to be administering authority in Somaliland and the nomination of Italy for administering authority for Eritrea. He added that in this contingency he would favor ceding the Port of Massawa to Ethiopia and perhaps part of northwest Eritrea to the Sudan. He urged strongly that the two Italian cities of Assab and Asmara not be turned over to Ethiopia. He said that a solution along these lines would answer completely the pincer argument of Ethiopia.
Count Sforza stressed the fact that he had repeatedly made the claim that he did not believe in colonies and he deplored the absence of a broader approach to the whole African problem. He said that he had suggested to Hector McNeil that perhaps a broad approach to the whole African problem along the general lines of President Truman's Point IV proposals might point the way to a generally satisfactory solution but that he had no immediate response from Mr. McNeil. He said that Italy had much to offer to any movement to build up Africa, particularly in the form of manpower and he pointed to the fact that thousands of Italian workmen have been used in Kenya and elsewhere in Africa to do labor which other nationalities would not perform.
Count Sforza then inquired what in my opinion he should say to the press as he left my office. After a brief exchange of views he agreed to say that he had returned to Washington to discuss with me several aspects of Italo- American relations which we had not had time to discuss during an earlier conversation with me prior to the signature of the North Atlantic Pact.
EUR:JDHickerson:mss:elm