Tom L. Evans Oral History Interview, December 10, 1963

Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened August, 1966
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[538]

FUCHS: Tom, in the last interview we got to the point where you had talked to Mr. Truman on election night in 1948, and suggested that he come back from his retreat at Excelsior Springs to the Muehlebach Hotel around eight o'clock. Could you take up the story from there now, please?

EVANS: Yes. He said that that was fine, he'd be there about eight o'clock. So, as near as I remember, I decided to take Mrs. Evans home about four o' clock that morning and I did. I laid down to get an hour or two nap and about six o'clock someone called, I think it was Matt Connelly, and said the President had arrived. Being the early riser that he was, he was over at the penthouse in the Muehlebach at six o'clock. So I hadn't undressed and I hadn't shaved or I hadn't cleaned up, but I immediately went down to the Muehlebach

[539]

and went up to the penthouse. I think it was probably, then, about a quarter till seven, and it was a madhouse. The halls going into the penthouse were full and I walked in the penthouse and it was packed full. I remember walking in, and sitting on the arm of the chair with the President was a man that was in Dewey headquarters the night before. That made me mad. That man was Vic Messall, whom we've talked about before. He'd taken a plane when it looked like Mr. Truman was winning.

FUCHS: How did you know he'd been in Dewey headquarters the night before?

EVANS: Because our Secret Service had been talking to their Secret Service men at Dewey headquarters and asked who all was there, and among them they said Vic Messall was there. Here he was sitting on the arm of the chair where the President was that early morning. You, of course, will recall

[540]

the episode whereby he was not permitted on the campaign?

FUCHS: Yes, we have recorded that.

EVANS: You have that in '44. So, knowing that he had been in Mr. Dewey's headquarters the night before and I not having much sleep, I was a little upset and I guess I used some pretty bad language and said, "What the hell are you doing here?" And, actually, I was pretty much upset about it and the President looked up and smiling and he said, "Now, Tom, don't get mad. We're not mad at anybody you know. We won." And he was all joyous and everything. So, I thought, "Well, that's fine, if it's all right with him." But it was quite a party and the Secret Service men certainly did not have much control of who came in or out that particular morning. At that time, they were all friends--no enemies: I think that just about covers that situation then, and, of course, the President said, "Well, I told you all along what

[541]

was going to happen, but you wouldn't believe me." He was there quite a while and as near as I remember, Jim, he went to Independence about ten o'clock that morning. He took a number of personal telephone calls from people, but, of course, there were thousands of them that he couldn't take and wouldn't take. He went home about ten o'clock, and as near as I remember--I sometimes get confused between the '44 and the '48 campaign--but I think he left by special train that afternoon the day after election and went back to Washington.

FUCHS: Did this reconciliation of a sort with Messall result in his having ingress to the White House in the second term of Mr. Truman?

EVANS: No. I'm sure he never was in the White House any time that Mr. Truman was President, and during the second term it became pretty well-known that Vic did not have the entree that he was supposed

[542]

to have had, and his business--his so-called public relations business--went off.

FUCHS: We've both seen an account, I believe, where a friend of Mr. Truman's, Jerome Walsh, had a letter published in Life in which he mentioned that, among others, a Lyman Field was in the penthouse at the Muehlebach on election eve. Who was Lyman Field?

EVANS: Well, Lyman Field is an attorney here in Kansas City and was formerly a member of the Board of Police Commissioners here in Kansas City. Whether he was a member of the Board of Police Commissioners in 1948, I don't know. He may have been. I don't recall Lyman Field being there except in the afternoon of election day. I'm almost positive that he was not there that evening, because there were many people that wanted to be there and there wasn't room for them; so the instructions from Matt Connelly was, to the Secret Service, that nobody was to

[543]

be there except the staff, and outside of the staff there was Jerome Walsh and myself, and of course, Mrs. Evans. I'm sure that Lyman Field was not there that morning. And then that letter, as I recall, that Jerome Walsh, I think he must have been a little confused--says that the President came over--I believe I remember that he came over from Excelsior Springs about nine o'clock. Well, that isn't true; he came over bright and early, about six, after I had gone home.

FUCHS: Did Lyman Field have a particularly close relationship with Mr. Truman?

EVANS: No, just being a member of the Board of Police Commissioners here, and being a Democrat, he knew him, but not intimate.

FUCHS: What was the relationship between Jerome Walsh and Mr. Truman?

EVANS: His father was, I think a former United States

[544]

Senator and quite a lawyer of note, and I might say, of national reputation--he's been dead for many years--and I think, a United States Senator, but I can't be positive of it without looking it up, Jim. But he had a great reputation and was a great friend of Mr. Truman. And Jerome (Jerry, as we called him) being his son, was the primary reason that he was there.

FUCHS: I see. What about Charlie Ross election night. Do you have any tale about him?

EVANS: I expect I better just speak for myself. I never was very optimistic, as I've told you, despite the fact that President Truman was optimistic that he was going to win. Matt Connelly said very little. He didn't say he thought he would or he didn't say he thought he wouldn't. I mean, he was more or less quiet. Charlie, I think, bless his heart, was a wonderful guy, and I think he felt that the President

[545]

probably would lose. He was having a terrible time with the newsmen and there was many of them--I guess forty or fifty, at least--bothering him about where the President was and getting angry at him because he wouldn't tell them; and so, Charlie started (oh, long after midnight and after the President had said to us not to call him anymore, that he was going to bed) having a few drinks, and being worn out completely by the time I left the penthouse, which was 3:30 or 4 o'clock in the morning, to take Mrs. Evans home and get a little rest, Charlie, who was, of course, not a drinking man, but I think exhausted, and hadn't eaten anything, and he just was out like a light and in bed with his clothes on. And, in fact, I had gotten him laid down and he was sound asleep. I wasn't there to witness this, so this is a hearsay story now, told to me by Matt Connelly, that when the President came in he knew nothing about it—

[546]

Charlie--that he was coming, because he was out asleep and the President went into the room with Matt Connelly and some of them and some of the newsmen. They had Merriman Smith, particularly, and Tony Vaccaro were the leaders in the AP and UP. They stood there while the President sort of gently slapped Charlie's cheeks and when he opened his eyes, as they say, it was the funniest sight in the world, because he was just embarrassed beyond words. He got up, and much to his amazement, why, Mr. Truman had been re-elected President of the United States. That was the first Charlie knew of it because when he had gone to bed, it wasn't anything sure by any means.

FUCHS: That's interesting. How do you think that squares with this statement that Walsh, in this letter he wrote, incidentally, to Morris Ernst, and which was subsequently published in the November 22, 1948 issue of Life Magazine, said there wasn't "a drop of liquor around, by the way. It was

[547]

all black coffee and cigarettes and the four telephones jangling, as Boyle's sources reported, steadily."

EVANS: I think that was correct. I think what Jerry Walsh was referring to was in the penthouse proper; there was no liquor there that night. I never saw it. I don't believe anybody had a drink in the penthouse, but Charlie--they had headquarters set up down on another floor for the newsmen--I'm not so sure but what it might have been on the mezzanine. And the newsmen, I'll assure you, all had plenty of liquor in the room, and Charlie was being friendly with all of them and that's where he was doing his drinking; but I think what Jerry refers to was actually in the penthouse. There was no liquor, I'm sure.

FUCHS: Do you recall a J. Franklin Carter, sometimes known as Jay Franklin, as having been there that evening?

[548]

EVANS: I should know who Jay Franklin is, but I don't recall, Jim. Who is he?

FUCHS: Well, he is a writer and he undertook, more or less, secret intelligence tasks for Roosevelt, and then continued into the Truman era for a while, and he writes under the name Jay Franklin, but his name is John Franklin Carter. He wrote an article in which he stated he was there. I just wondered if you recalled, because I hadn't seen any other confirmation of this, that he was in the penthouse on election night.

EVANS: I don't believe he was there on election night, but if it's the man that I remember, I think he was in the penthouse that election afternoon. This is rather hazy in my mind because, of course, it's been a long time ago, that these men that I spoke about, Merriman Smith and Tony Vaccaro and a fellow by the name of Bourgholtzer, I believe, with CBS had heard that Jay Franklin

[549]

(this is the reason it's in my mind) was in talking to the President and they got a hold of Charlie Ross and just raised hell that an individual newsman, so to speak, should get in to see the President. I'm sure that's who that was, and Charlie pacified them by saying that he wasn't giving him an interview, it was just on an old friendship basis, but they weren't very happy about it. I couldn't swear that was Jay Franklin, but I'm sure he was not there election night, because as I have said numerous times, there wasn't anybody there except the staff, which, incidentally, was quite large, because they'd been on a campaign tour with the President. There were no outsiders there, I'm sure, except that evening. Now, during the election day, there was worlds of people in and out of the penthouse.

FUCHS: Well, is there anything else that you think might be of interest about the '48 election or the post-election activity there up to the

[550]

time of the inauguration?

EVANS: No, Jim, as I say, I think he left that afternoon by train for Washington and I don't think of anything else at all that would be...

FUCHS: When did you next see him?

EVANS: Oh, I guess--really, I don't recall how soon it was. I was to the inaugural, of course. Let's see, they've changed it around. I guess that was in what?

FUCHS: It would have been January 20, 1949, the actual inauguration day.

EVANS: I suspect that was probably the first time that I went back, although frankly I don't--no, I was back there in the early part of December, I recall now.

FUCHS: Did you see the President at that time?

EVANS: Yes, I saw him on a couple of occasions. I had

[551]

forgotten, but I had some radio business there in the early part, and I think it was on the sixth of December of '48, and, of course, I never was in Washington but what I always saw the President.

FUCHS: Anything of interest that took place at that time?

EVANS: Oh, I don't think so, just visiting was all. And then, of course, Mrs. Evans and I went back for the inaugural, and were in the President's reserved section, met for the inaugural up on the Hill, and reviewed the parade from the President's box on the White House lawn. I recall it was plenty cold. As I recall, the inaugural four years previous when it was snowing and we had that one with President Roosevelt on the back, as I call it, of the White House. And this was a cold day in January of '49 when he was inaugurated. And [we] attended, of course, all of the various receptions and the balls, and we went in the same

[552]

group, Mrs. Evans and I did, with the President and Mrs. Truman, not, of course, in the same car with them but in the same group, because as I recall there were two balls and he attended both of them. But that was just the regular routine of a typical inaugural.

FUCHS: Is there anything that stands out in your memory either about the actual inauguration or some of these other ancillary events?

EVANS: I can't think of anything, Jim, that I think would be of interest.

FUCHS: Coming down to 1949, there was a bill before Congress regarding a new wage and hour law and, I think, there was probably some pressure put on you to try to influence the President to veto this bill which provided for a seventy-five cent minimum wage. Do you recall anything about that?

EVANS: Oh, yes, to some degree I recall, being in

[553]

the chain drugstore business and having worlds of contacts with manufacturers of all kinds all over the country, they thought if they could talk to me, that all I'd have to do is tell Mr. Truman to do it or not to do it, which of course, you know, is ridiculous. I never can tell him what to do and wouldn't even attempt to; but as I recall, there was a world of people contacted me because they thought that it would ruin them to have to go on a--wasn't that the time of the forty hour week, as well as a minimum of seventy-five cents an hour. But that was no different than many other pressures that I got and I certainly did not bother the President with them.

FUCHS: You don't remember talking to him about it?

EVANS: I remember not talking to him about it, because as I've often said, if I took everything up, during the nearly eight years that Mr. Truman

[554]

was in the White House, if I took up the various things that people wanted me to take up with him, I'll assure you, he wouldn't have had time to do anything else except talk to me. And so I bothered him very little about what people outside wanted, because, after all, he knew what was going on from much more reliable sources, because, as you can imagine, the President has at his command, the staff to gather this kind of information that he wanted. So whatever I would say would be of no value.

FUCHS: In 1950, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation granted a loan to the Crown Drug Company and, as you are well aware, there were certain newspaper articles that implied that this might have been granted, at least in part, because of your friendship with President Truman. Do you recall that episode at this time and what are your comments upon it?

[555]

EVANS: Oh, yes, I recall the RFC loan made to Crown Drug Company of which Mr. Truman had absolutely nothing to do with. I never discussed it with him--wouldn't bother him with such things. I am not sure who was head of the RFC at that time?

FUCHS: I should know, but don't.

EVANS: I don't either, I should know too. Anyway, the head of the RFC here in Kansas City was Harry C. Jobes, whom I'm sure you have heard of.

FUCHS: He is a friend of Mr. Truman's, is that not right?

EVANS: He was not in Mr. Truman's battery, but he was :captain of a supply battery in World War I with Mr. Truman and they were longtime, close, personal friends and, incidentally, I think Mr. Truman got him appointed to his position here, in charge of RFC here in Kansas City, and this section. And, incidentally, Mr. Jobes was a rabid Republican, believe it or not, and, in

[556]

fact, ran for western judge of the county court at one time on the Republican ticket. And, of course, being a good friend of Mr. Truman's, he was a good friend of mine, and he was an old time banker. He was a president of--I've forgotten the bank--I'm inclined to think it might have been the stockyards bank here in Kansas City, because he had made a lot of cattle loans and he was a stockman; but he had a wonderful reputation and was a wonderful banker; and I submitted our financial statements to Mr. Jobes as head of the RFC and he turned it over to their examiner and they examined our statement and our operations and Mr. Jobes made the recommendation to Washington. And all I had to do in Washington (and as I said, I did not even discuss it with Mr. Truman), was to appear before a committee of the RFC and as I recall it lasted about thirty minutes and we were given the grant. The funny thing is those stories came out about the RFC loan and using

[557]

political influence long after that loan had been paid back by Crown Drug Company, which, of course, is a matter of record. But as Mr. Truman said--I worried about those stories a little--"Oh, forget it. That's politics," Mr. Truman said. "Don't pay any attention to it." Just the same, there were some articles that were written by some columnist--you've got it in my scrapbook, because I know they're in there--about the several millions of dollars that I made by getting a grant for a television station that Mr. Truman got for me. Actually, Jim (and maybe we've recorded this before), I did not get the grant for a television station under Mr. Truman. I had an application in when he was President before the election of '48 I didn't get the grant because all applications were frozen, and certainly I never discussed it with him. I didn't get the grant until 1951 under Mr. Eisenhower.

FUCHS: You mean the grant for the television station?

[558]

EVANS: The grant for a television station. So, I got that under a Republican. And I've often said, and I believe it would be true, if we'd kept a Democrat in, I probably never would have gotten one.

FUCHS: Well, what year did you sell your interest in Crown Drug, and the month?

EVANS: I don't know offhand, Jim. I'd have to look it up, but I'm inclined to think that it was in '48.

FUCHS: Of course, this RFC loan was granted in '50.

EVANS: Oh, was it in '50? Well, then, that loan was granted in '50?

FUCHS: That's what my notes say. I vaguely recall that you once told me that you disposed of your Crown Drug interest in 1949 sometime, but you kept on as chairman of the board.

[559]

EVANS: That's what I thought it was. There's something wrong because the RFC loan was granted while I was there.

FUCHS: While you were still the owner of the company.

EVANS: Well, now, it's been so long--now, you've got me confused. I don't know. Maybe that loan was made by…

FUCHS: Well, it must be documented some place.

EVANS: Oh, yes, it surely is. But I was under the impression that--well, I don't know. I'd have to check into the files to get the date. The facts are, and I think I have told you this, that I, of course, was running Crown Drug Company for many years, being one of the organizers, and not actually running KCMO, but being the principal owner and overseeing the management, and doing a lot of civic work and a lot of political work, that I was completely worn out and exhausted,

[560]

and as I have told you before, developed an ulcer that I had been nursing for twenty or twenty-five years. I've forgotten the number now, but it seems to me that in the three weeks period, ten or twelve of my good friends had dropped dead with heart attacks--all of them operating big businesses--and I had made up my mind that I was going to get out of business as soon as I could, that it just wasn't worth killing yourself. So, I disposed of Crown Drug Company first, and I'm under the impression that that was '48 or '49. I could certainly tell by checking into some records. And then disposed of my interest in KCMO in 1953. Then, I devoted most of my time to the raising of funds for the Harry S. Truman Library and the building of it. But I certainly talked to Harry Jobes about the loan, and it might have been during that period after I had sold my interest but was there as chairman of the board. I know I had planned to stay for a year at least, but I didn't. I think I only stayed six months,

[561]

but I'm going to check my records and I'll give you a call and give you the correct date, so we'll find out about it.

FUCHS: Well, I have a note from your records that you gave up the chairmanship in June of 1950.

EVANS: June of 1950. Now, is that from my files or is that from my statement?

FUCHS: It's from your files, or else it was a statement in a newspaper clipping in your files.

EVANS: Well, then there is plenty of newspaper clippings that gives you the date in my scrapbook that you have out at the Library on the time I disposed both of Crown Drug Company and KCMO. So there would be no question about the date, You check it up and save me the time and let me know what the dates are, will you?

FUCHS: Yes. I think in 1950, December, you went to the Army-Navy game with Mr. Truman, Was there

[562]

anything that stands out in your memory about that occasion?

EVANS: Well, I well remember the trip and going over on the special train with the President and Mrs. Truman and, of course, the staff. Boy, there was a staff and, of course, most of the Cabinet, the Supreme Court justices. It was really a wonderful trip. The President invited me to go and insisted that I go, and I remember we saw quite a football game and it was quite a lot of fun between Harry Vaughan of the Army and, I think, it was Admiral Dennison, but I'm not sure, of the Navy. I've forgotten, but it seems to me that the Army won that particular game. It was a close game.

FUCHS: I think it was the year--I saw that game and as I remember it, that was the year that Army was so overwhelmingly favored...

EVANS: And lost, that's right. You're correct. They

[563]

were giving big odds because--and Navy came up--I think maybe that was the only game they won that year. And that was a cold day. If you were there you'll remember that. I sat in the President's box, right back of him, and most of his Cabinet was there, and as I say, I believe most all of the Supreme Court justices. So, it was quite a gathering and then we, after the game, of course, went back to Washington and on the special train of the President.

FUCHS: No incidents that are worth recording, that you recall?

EVANS: I don't think of any. Nothing I think anybody would be interested in.

FUCHS: I have a note that Charlie Ross recommended you to John Hersey in 1950, who was then doing a series of articles on Mr. Truman for the New Yorker magazine. Do you recall anything about that?

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EVANS: Well, I recall, I believe, that John Hersey came to see me. In what year?

FUCHS: 1950. Late in 1950.

EVANS: But I didn't recall that Charlie Ross had recommended me, but maybe he did. I know I was very reluctant to talk to any newsmen or writers and wouldn't, because it was always too easy to get misquoted or too easy to get mixed up in dates; and I wouldn't do it without the approval of either the President or some of his staff such as Matt Connelly or Charlie Ross or Charlie Murphy or some of those people. So, that may well have been, that Charlie Ross recommended me.

FUCHS: Do you recall talking to Mr. Hersey at length or about how much time did you spend with him?

EVANS: Actually, Jim, I don't remember how much time I did spend with him. I've had so many of them

[565]

here that I don't offhand remember Hersey. I remember the name, but I don't recall it. Have you anything that would refresh my mind?

FUCHS: No, I just wondered about it. I saw this letter where he had been...

EVANS: Well, I remember it, and I don't know who it was, of one that I think Mr. Truman told me to see him and cooperate with him and he--in my terms--wrote the wrong kind of a story. It wasn't true and I told him about it and it didn't seem to bother him a great deal and when it did come out, he said, "Well, I read the proof of it and wanted to change it because he had misquoted me," but he didn't. But I don't remember even who that was now, because as you well know, there have been so many, many books written, good, bad, and indifferent.

FUCHS: Well, you do remember seeing Jonathan Daniels in 1950?

[566]

EVANS: Yes. Of course, I would see him in Washington, and, yes, I talked to him, but not at length.

FUCHS: When did you first learn and from whom that President Truman was not going to run for re-election in 1952?

EVANS: We were, Mrs. Evans and I, were, of course, in Washington and as I recall there was a big dinner at the Armory, I believe that's it. I know it was a gigantic gathering and I guess the proceeds went to the National Democratic Committee. I'm inclined to think it was one of those famous one hundred dollar a plate dinners to raise funds, and I had been in the White House that morning and visited with him, which as I told you, was my custom to get over there early in the morning before the staff was there--he was always in his office--just for a personal visit. And I was back in the afternoon, and he said to me, "Well, I'm going to make an announcement

[567]

tonight at the dinner. You'll be there."

I said, "Oh yes, I'll be there." And I felt sure that the announcement was that he would seek re-election. That was my impression. And I think everybody felt that way, I mean, all the Democrats. Now I've never checked with him since, but I think he was trying to convey to me not to be too upset by the statement that he was going to give. Now he didn't say that--and I was shocked at that dinner when he said that he would not run. And when I later talked to him about it, some time later, he said, "Well, I told you what I was going to do."

And I said, "Well, you may have told me, but I didn't understand it." And frankly, from the standpoint of a personal friend, I was delighted; but as a Democrat I was just shocked. I had a business engagement and had to leave right after that dinner; I think I sent him a wire. I believe you have a copy of it.

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Can you remember seeing it. Well, I just recall that I wrote him because Mrs. Truman, after they were out of the White House, once said to Mrs. Evans and I that that was the nicest wire he received. Something about the fact that--well, I don't recall now what it was--that I knew this was what Mrs. Truman wanted, and whatever she wanted I was always for and I thought he would be better off in the long run. Do you recall a copy of that?

FUCHS: There's probably a copy there but I can't say that I do recall seeing it. Had you ever talked to Mr. Truman or urged him to run again? Had you talked to him about it prior to that?

EVANS: Yes, I had talked to him about it in this way, that it was just assumed that he was going to run, but not with any idea--you know, forcing him to run or trying or urging him to run or anything. It just seemed to me that in talking

[569]

to him, I would talk about things that we would do in that campaign, and things for him to tell me what he wanted done and he never said he wasn't going to run.

FUCHS: Since you had assumed that he was going to run, you naturally wouldn't have been constrained to urge him. If you had thought he hadn't made up his mind to run, would you have urged him?

EVANS: Well, frankly, Jim, I don't think I would because it is, as you well know, it's a terrible job. Because of my friendship for him, nearly eight years was enough. I wouldn't have been in the position of urging him. Frankly, I'm glad that his decision was not to, but it came as such a shock because knowing him as I did, and knowing him to be the politician that he is, I just couldn't conceive of him not running, but I was actually and honestly and sincerely happy for the fact that he did not

[570]

run, because of his health and because I knew Mrs. Truman wanted to come back to Independence.

FUCHS: Why do you think he decided not to run?

EVANS: Well, you said, "think;" I certainly don't know. Your guess is as good as mine, but I think it was probably the "Boss Lady," as I refer to Mrs. Truman, that was her decision, I don't think--this is purely my idea--she never said "yes" or "no," but I think that she did not want him to run. And you know how he feels about her and I think he made that decision for her. That's always been my first look at it.

FUCHS: How did you feel about the Stevenson nomination, his candidacy for President?

EVANS: Well, after the President had announced that he was not a candidate in '52, and I had left Washington and sent him this telegram--I recall now that I was back in Washington and visiting

[571]

with him. (I'm inclined to think that I left Washington and had an appointment in New York and came back to Washington a few days after that dinner), I said, "Who are we going to be for?"

And he said, now that I recall, at that particular time, that the logical man who was capable and qualified was Mr. Stevenson and that he had been in touch with him. And then, I recall, again, in talking to him about it, and this is somewhat hazy, he was a little upset because Stevenson was acting like maybe he didn't want it. And Mr. Truman was a little put out with his attitude and told me in no uncertain terms that he was upset about it because he had had him in and talked to him, but he wanted to play, let's say, "hard to get," and Mr. Truman didn't like it. I know I was there, but I can't recall what particular job I had to do at that convention. And, as I recall, I was for him because that's what Mr. Truman had said. That's

[572]

who we were going to be for and he was the logical man, was capable, and well-qualified.

FUCHS: Did you meet Stevenson?

EVANS: At the convention?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: Oh, yes, yes. On several occasions and met him when he, at Mr. Truman's suggestion, came to Kansas City; I was at the airport to meet him, but my memory is that Mr. Truman was--again I'm repeating--because he had a complete and clear understanding with him and apparently he wanted to play hard to get or maybe he didn't want it to appear that he and Mr. Truman were in accord--afraid that might have hurt him. I know Mr. Truman was quite upset and probably was the cause of him not being for him four years after when I was at the convention with Mr. Truman. That was the year he was for Harriman.

[573]

FUCHS: Yes. In 1952 there was a proposed bill which was commonly denoted the Fair Trade Act, which had been sent to the White House for Mr. Truman's approval or disapproval. Do you recall anything about that?

EVANS: Yes, when you talk about Fair Trade that's the Fair Price Bill. Yes, again there was a tremendous amount of pressure on me from all over the country--I believe it had passed Congress, had it not?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: And was up to him for signature and he could have vetoed it. I think maybe he did.

FUCHS: No, he signed it in July, '52.

EVANS: Yes, July, ‘52.

Well, anyway, I well recall, Jim, that there was a tremendous amount of pressure. Number one: druggists throughout the country

[574]

were strong for it and manufacturers of products usually sold in drugstores were for it, because it would enable the druggist to get a fair profit. Chain stores as a whole ordinarily were against it because they wanted to sell at cut prices, and I being in the chain store business, you would naturally think that I would be against the bill because being one that was selling at reduced prices, cut prices, as we used the term. But we had a competitor there in Kansas City--I'm sure you've heard of them--Katz Drug Company, who, I think, gave me these gray hairs that I have, would sell merchandise at cost and below cost and I remember even in President Truman's home town of Independence, I got into a price war on cigarettes. This was a good many years ago, of course, in Crown Drug Company, and cigarettes actually cost (I'm thinking about Camels, Lucky Strike, Chesterfield, and Old Gold cigarettes in those days)--by the way,

[575]

there wasn't so many brands then--cost about eleven and a fraction cents a package, and we sold them for thirteen cents, two for a quarter. And we got into a price war with Katz and they advertised them at two for twenty-three and I came out at two for twenty-two. Then they came out at two for twenty-one, and I came out at two for nineteen. And we were finally down selling cigarettes at five cents a package and paying eleven and a fraction. So, I was for that particular bill because it would insure a fair profit to the tens of thousands of druggists throughout the country. And if I couldn't run a chain of drugstores successfully without cutting prices way down to cost and below cost, I should not be in business. So, I was strong for the bill plus the fact that I had a tremendous amount of pressure put on by drug manufacturers and retailers all over the country. And I simply explained my position to

[576]

Mr. Truman which he readily understood, Now that's about all I had to do with it.

FUCHS: Well, I understand he did have an idea that it would raise the prices to consumers and he was opposed to it, but he did sign it.

EVANS: That's correct, that's the discussion that we had, and I pointed out to him, as I well remember, that a toothpaste that was supposed to sell for fifty cents, the fair trade price would be thirty-nine and would cost the average druggist thirty-four cents; it would cost the chain store operator; because he bought in huge quantities, about thirty cents, and that the fair trade price would be thirty-nine cents, which in reality instead of some druggists selling it for forty-five and forty-eight and the chain stores selling at twenty-nine which is below cost, that to the general public they would all benefit at a lower price because everybody would adopt the fair trade price of thirty-nine cents, And I

[577]

think I sold him the idea, because after a11, he worked in a drugstore. He worked in the drugstore in Independence, you know, that I later bought for Crown Drug Company, the old Clinton Pharmacy.

FUCHS: Well, before we go on to post-Presidential matters, I want to ask you a few more things about Mr. Truman's Presidency. What do you know of the relationship of Mr. Truman and Bill Hillman and Dave Noyes and their relative influence on Mr. Truman?

EVANS: During the time that Mr. Truman was President, Bill Hillman was, I'm sure you know this, a commentator or news reporter for the then Mutual Broadcasting System, and he was stationed at the White House in the newsroom. That's where Bill Hillman got to know the President, He also, by the way, knew him when he was Senator on the investigating committee because

[578]

Hillman was doing commentary, news reporting, on the investigation committee. Well, that's where he got to know him and then, as you will recall, Bill Hillman wrote the book Mr. President, the one full of pictures, which he ought to have made a lot of money out of because he had everything at his fingertips and it was even while the man was still President, I think, the book was written. Isn't that correct?

FUCHS: Yes, sir.

EVANS: And my impression is, I probably shouldn't say it, but it was a very poorly written book but he had everything to go with, and where Dave Noyes came in, I really don't know. presume that Bill Hillman got him into the picture, but that's only a guess on my part. I really didn't know Dave Noyes. I knew Bill Hillman very well because he was always in the pressroom at the White House; but I

[579]

really never knew Dave Noyes until after Mr. Truman came back to Independence and the Library was completed, and when Bill Hillman would be out here, why, Dave Noyes was always here. So, my idea was that Bill got Dave Noyes into the picture. Now how and why I don't know. Dave used to be, if I'm not--and I'm pretty sure I'm right--with an advertising agency of some note.

FUCHS: That's right.

EVANS: Well, I think in Chicago.

FUCHS: I believe it was Lord and Thomas.

EVANS: But he was in Chicago I'm sure, and then went to California. But I'm sorry, I don't know much about that situation.

FUCHS: Were you frequently in the pressroom at the White House. You say you knew Hillman as being around there?

[580]

EVANS: Well, no, I was not frequently in the pressroom, but when I would come into the White House, you'd come in the main entrance and the pressroom in those days--I don't know where it is now--was just at the right of the door, and, of course, the press men would always grab everybody that came in to see Truman as he went in and grab you when you came out, that was their job. And then at the convention in '44, all of the newsmen and press were there, and of course, as you well know and as we've recorded, I was with Mr. Truman all the time and got to know them all. Then in the campaign in '48 they were with them, and I was with the President and got to know them intimately that way. I knew all of them very, very well; but I spent no time in the pressroom. I didn't have to. They grabbed me when I'd come out. Oh, I went to the press' annual dinner--Gridiron Dinner in Washington.

[581]

That's of course, a social function and I'd be with most all of the White House staff then,

FUCHS: Do you know anything of the influence or in what advisory capacity Noyes acted in relation to Mr. Truman?

EVANS: You mean he was in the White House?

FUCHS: When he was in the White House, and also I'm interested in subsequent events.

EVANS: I'm under the impression, and I could be wrong, that he never was in the White House. I don't think he had any connection with Mr. Truman during the time that he was President. After, or maybe in the last year, Hillman got Dave Noyes in. Now, I'm under that impression, as I say, and then after his term expired, Hillman and Noyes together were assisting him in writing his Memoirs and various other books. And I think they got the idea that they could advise him

[582]

politically and wrote a number of statements for him--I don't want to say speeches. But in the '56 convention in Chicago both Bill Hillman and Noyes were there, and for the first time I noticed they were having a lot to do with the--well, what shall I say--the fight on Stevenson. I frankly felt that Bill Hillman, whom I had known for a number of years, and as I say I had nothing against him, but I felt that he was certainly not qualified to advise the master politician, Mr. Truman, on political matters. And the same way with Dave Noyes, but they seemed to have done it. Then they worked on a TV series as you know, and books, of which I had absolutely nothing to do with and did not want to get involved in it in any manner, shape or form, and therefore don't know anything about it.

FUCHS: Do you have a succinct opinion of Hillman and Mr. Noyes which you might want to record?

[583]

EVANS: Only, as I say, that I don't think either one of them are qualified--I've already said it--to give political advice to Mr. Truman, but they seem to do it. Now, of course, Mr. Hillman is dead and at the present time, as you are aware, I'm sure, they're making a series of--I guess, TV films, of which I think is a horrible thing to get the former President involved in. It's a lot of work and a lot of effort, and, as I say, I was not asked about it and therefore didn’t want to get involved and I don't know, frankly, I know nothing about it. I do know and I've never said anything to Mr. Truman because I just don't want to upset him, but I do know that Mr. Hillman tried to sell these various films to the various networks and they were not interested in them, and--Mr. Hillman had a rather nasty disposition and temper--and, he gave Mr. Truman the impression that the networks were not treating Mr. Truman right, which is not true at all. If

[584]

it was anybody's fault, it was Mr. Hillman's, In the first place, you should never take the former President of the United States, in my opinion, and get him to make a series of television films and then try to sell that to a network. That's just bad policy. I'm sure Mr. Truman didn't know that, but Mr. Hillman is gone and I don't want to say anything to Mr. Truman about it, but it's been a bad situation.

FUCHS: Are you speaking of the films that were produced by David Susskind's Talent Associates?

EVANS: Prior to that, there was another group produced films of Mr. Truman. It wasn't David Susskind, it was something else. In fact, they came to my house and spent all day.

FUCHS: What year would this have been?

EVANS: About three years ago, taking pictures of my home, Mrs. Evans and I, our little dog, and ran

[585]

cables in, all having to do with various episodes that happened with myself and Mr. Truman.

FUCHS: You don't recall that being the Susskind outfit--Talent Associates?

EVANS: No, I don't think it was Susskind, I think it was prior to the Susskind...

FUCHS: Of course, there's another outfit now, which is after Susskind.

EVANS: Well, then that was Susskind. Susskind was the first one. You're right, that's who it was. And that's the one that they tried, I think, Hillman did, to sell to the networks and gave Mr. Truman the wrong impression that they didn't want to buy it. The whole trouble was it should never have been made in the first place with a former President of the United States and offered to the network. Mr. Truman often speaks unkindly of the networks, that they've never done anything

[586]

for him or that they've turned so and so and so and so, which is not true, It was brought in by Mr. Hillman.

FUCHS: Why do you say it shouldn't have been done that way?

EVANS: Well, because it just isn't a proper way to do, to take the former President of the United States and make films and take them and try to sell them to the networks. It's just wrong, that's all. I think the President was sold on the idea that these were going to be used for educational purposes, and no money to be made out of it, but, I think the purpose of it, actually, was, by Mr. Hillman, particularly, and Noyes, that there was going to be a substantial amount of money made out of it. But as I have said, I have not been in on it, have not been asked a question about it, I now know, just for instance this month, December, prior to the untimely end of President Kennedy, that Mr. Truman was scheduled to go to New York,

[587]

I think maybe on the sixth of December, and make a series of about six of these thirty minute recordings. Well, a professional takes a week to make a thirty minute recording and here they want Mr. Truman to make six in about a week, which is a terrible hardship on him. And he's under the impression that he's doing it for history and for educational purposes, and it's just too much for a man that's been through what he has and at his age, and I just think it's a shame. But again I say, I haven't been in on it, don't know anything about it.

FUCHS: What about Tom Gavin who is frequently seen with Mr. Truman now? How long has he been a close associate of Mr. Truman and how did that come about, and so forth?

EVANS: Tom Gavin has been in politics, I guess, for thirty-five years around Kansas City. He was active as a Pendergast Democrat, which as you know from previous recordings, a Pendergast "Goat"

[588]

Democrat and that's what Mr. Truman and I were. Tom Gavin ran a precinct in the old Fifth Ward, which is the territory between Thirty-first Street and Thirty-ninth, roughly, and Gillham Road on the east and State Line on the west. Charlie Regan, who was a city clerk of Kansas City, was in charge of the Fifth Ward. I used to assist Charlie Regan. I was president of the Fifth Ward Democratic Club, and Gavin was one of Charlie Regan's and, so to speak, my lieutenants in the running of the precinct. Back in the days of prohibition, Tom Gavin ran, a speakeasy--it's no secret, everybody knows it--down on Main Street and also ran a gambling joint when Kansas City was wide open--wide open days. He just grew up in the Pendergast organization and ran a speakeasy. I've known Tom, I guess, since 1920 when I bought my first drugstore and Tom was just a young kid--so was I for that matter. Then, as I recall, when Mr. Truman was presiding judge of the county court, Tom held some political

[589]

job, insignificant--I've forgotten what it was--maybe it was in the recorder's office, collector's office, or something. Then he was over at the city hall. Then he was elected councilman from the First District, and that had always been a Democratic stronghold, and probably he could never have been defeated in that first district. That was, of course, before we took in Kansas City, north of the river, which changed it. But even today, Capra, the present city councilman, is from the First District. He was the only one elected even in this last election. Well, anyway, he knew Mr. Truman when he was presiding judge, just like I did, and when he was senator, and would see him at meetings when he was senator and probably see him when he was occasionally in Washington. Then later, as I say, he ran for district councilman of the First District, and was elected on the Democratic ticket, and when the Citizens' Association won the city hall, why he was elected on the Democratic ticket from the

[590]

First District, and did a good job in the City Council; even so good, that he deserted the Democratic party--I say deserted, the Citizens took him in and he was their candidate and he ran at large the next time as a city councilman, under the Citizens' Association, and still with the support of the remnants of the Pendergast association and many of the other Democrats. And so he's been in the city council for a good many years. Then, because of his long record in the city council--I think it's a good bit like Congress, seniority governs--he was the oldest man in the city council under the Citizen's Association in point of service, and, therefore, he became mayor pro tem. In other words, when Mayor Bartle was elected the first time, he was mayor pro tem. He served four years; Bartle served eight years. So, he served eight years as mayor pro tem, and I believe another eight years, so that was sixteen years in the city council. So, as mayor pro tem, he would see Mr. Truman when he was senator, when he was back here as President. And as I told you, I would be at the

[591]

penthouse looking after things when Mr. Truman would come back as President of the United States, Tom Gavin was a constant visitor up there because he was a well-known friend. When the convention where the President made him his alternate--Tom was a delegate to the convention, which he had been a number of times because of his close association with Jim Pendergast. Tom was an alternate, so he became Mr. Truman's, who was President of the United States, alternate. And he wrote down who he was for which, I'm sure you know that story, which Tom tells me is true, that he never knew what he wrote down until he got to Chicago, and he wrote down Adlai Stevenson's name. Well, that, of course, publicized Tom Gavin throughout the nation on television, as Mr. Truman's alternate, and being mayor pro tern whenever the President came back to Kansas City and was going someplace on a trip to make a speech, held ask Tom to go with him a couple of times, Tom

[592]

enjoyed it. He offered to go to look after him. He knows how to handle the President very well and to keep the crowds away. A lot of people that were friends of Mr. Truman would go with him, they send word ahead and have all their relatives and friends and future friends to come up and meet the President. That kind is not much help. Tom Gavin is pretty good at looking after the President, as you know, and the President appreciated it and Tom Gavin is always offering his services. Frankly, I think it's a fine thing that Tom Gavin can feel that he can give the time. Now, an unfortunate situation is, that under the--as I said, he was elected by the Citizens--let's say eight years ago before the present administration and served four years with distinction, and then was reelected by the Citizens' Association, but a majority of the Democrats were elected--defeated the Citizens in the next four year term—

[593]

and frankly, I voted for every one of them and I was terribly sorry I voted for any of them because they made a horrible mess. Not particularly Tom Gavin, but the Democratic Citizens' ticket as a whole, and they got a terrible reputation. And as you will recall, probably that's when they had a dozen city managers and the town's been going down ever since and the revenue--and Tom again ran this last election. Outside of Capra who ran from the First District, who was reelected, they all were defeated and Tom was defeated badly. Not that Tom did anything that wasn't so good, but he was with the group that had, including Bartle and all of them. So he was just out. Now, the President, nobody is any more kind, as you well know, or thoughtful or want to do things for their friends than he does. And I think, actually, and he said to me, "I love to take Tom with me because I think it helps him. He's going to run for office and

[594]

this publicity won't hurt him." He's again going to run for office. Just like when President Kennedy was assassinated, Tom Gavin called me and told me first. He knew it before I did. I was lunching at the Kansas City Club and he called me. I immediately left and went to Independence because I felt Mr. Truman and Mrs. Truman would need some help with telephone calls. I went right out to the house and stayed a couple or three hours that day. Tom Gavin was out early the next morning. Mr. Truman, as you recall, the news just shocked him so he went to bed. He was unable to make a statement or anything. I helped Mrs. Truman with some calls. The next morning, Tom Gavin was out at the Library bright and early when he decided that--Mr. Johnson had talked to him and sending an Army plane for him to take him back, and Tom offered to go and did and did a good job of looking after the President. In my opinion, it's a good thing

[595]

to have Tom sort of as a--what should I say--buffer, maybe. And he's well-acquainted with the politicians throughout the country and mainly because he was an alternate and so he was named by Mr. Truman as his alternate to the '52 convention--right?

FUCHS: Yes. Would you term him an adviser to Mr. Truman?

EVANS: No, not particularly an adviser. I'd call him--I'm not an adviser to Mr. Truman. Mr. Truman doesn't have many advisers, but he's a good friend of Mr. Truman's.

FUCHS: Who do you think were Mr. Truman's principal advisers when he was in the White House?

EVANS: His Cabinet and Matt Connelly, Charlie Murphy, his staff, were his sole advisers, plus, probably, maybe one or two men who were Supreme Court justices that he had appointed.

[596]

FUCHS: Any that you would single out as being the one Mr. Truman looked to for the soundest advice?

EVANS: Yes, one, and I hate to be so dumb, I can't call his name. He's now passed away. He and his wife went to this famous Army-Navy football game...I can see his face, but I can't call his name.

FUCHS: Are you thinking of Vinson?

EVANS: That's right. The President admired him very much and I think he took up many things--asked his advice on, but he was in a position from a legal standpoint to render Mr. Truman advice.

FUCHS: What about Harry Vaughan? Do you think Mr. Truman looked to him?

EVANS: Well, frankly, I don’t think he looked to him, but knowing Harry as I did, he got plenty of advice from him, but I don't think Mr. Truman paid too much attention to it. They were great friends as you well know.

[597]

FUCHS: You say Harry would advise...

EVANS: Harry Vaughan would advise anybody and the President, as I say, liked Harry; they were great friends; he made him his military aide, and took him to Potsdam. Sure, I've heard Harry Vaughan advise Mr. Truman dozens of times and I've seen Mr. Truman sort of laugh and pay no attention to him. Actually, I couldn't conscientiously say that Harry Vaughan was an adviser, but knowing Harry Vaughan as I do, he certainly would try; and of course, as military aide, he was in on all staff meetings. Oh, undoubtedly, he did advise him on some things, but I think the important decisions that he wanted advice on came from people like Sam Rayburn, Lyndon Johnson, McCormack, and his staff, and some of the senators whom he worked closely with on his investigating committee--even Republican senators.

FUCHS: Mr. Evans, you told me a story one time in relation to reporters and misquotations, about

[598]

an incident where you had dinner in the White House. I wonder if you'd mind repeating that for the record?

EVANS: Well, yes, as I said, this was a good example of what a news reporter will do to gain headlines or make news when there's really no news to it. Mr. Truman was President, and in the White House, and I was invited over to dinner that evening in the private quarters of the White House. Nobody was there but Mrs. Truman, Margaret, and the President and myself. We had a nice evening, a good dinner and a nice visit after, and when I left the White House, nobody said anything to me. I didn't even see a reporter. Nobody said anything to me. The next morning--I was staying at the, I guess the Mayflower Hotel--I've forgotten now whether it was the Mayflower or the Statler. Anyway, I well remember I got a long distance call from Kansas City and it was Mrs. Evans. And she was not too friendly, a

[599]

little bit cold, and I wondered what had happened, and she said, "Who's traveling with you?"

And I said, "Nobody, why?" What are you talking about?"

And she said, "Well, it's in the morning paper that you and I had dinner at the White House and that I said that Bess set a good table.' And I wondered who was traveling with you?"

And I said, "Well, I did have dinner at the White House, but I didn't see a soul, and nobody asked me anything." And I was quite upset about it because I knew that it would get back to the Trumans and they would think that I might have said that, "Bess," whom I never called Bess in my life, let alone after she became First Lady, would think I was a fine guy to make such a remark. I know I rushed right over to the White House, got in to see the President, told him, and he just laughed. He thought it was the funniest thing that ever happened. "Why that's typical." Duke Shoop, who was the Kansas City Star representative,

[600]

now dead, had been with the Star for many years, wrote the story. Well, I didn't get any kick out of it. I thought it was terrible, so I went down to Duke Shoop's office mad as the dickens and he just laughed it off as a good joke. So, it just proves what a reporter will do to make headlines.

FUCHS: Do you recall any other incidents like that offhand?

EVANS: No, I suspect I could if I had time to think about them. I don't offhand, no.

FUCHS: Is there anything that you can recall about the years Mr. Truman was President that you think we ought to put on the record that I haven't covered?

EVANS: Have we put on the record about the time (I think we did), when I went in and asked him how we were going to build the Truman Library? I think we put that in, did we not?

[601]

FUCHS: No, I haven't got into the Truman Library story yet.

EVANS: Well, that happened, of course, when he was President, you know.

FUCHS: Well, it might be a good time to go into that.

EVANS: I know I told you the story about George Allen, who was President.

FUCHS: Yes, I've heard that story.

EVANS: Well, lets just go ahead and put it in.

FUCHS: When did it first come to your attention that there was going to be a library built?

EVANS: Oh, I would say, probably, in '49 or '50. I was in Washington and had a meeting in his private quarters in the White House one evening. I remember Judge Rosenman was there, Clark Clifford, Matt Connelly, and a number of others including

[602]

myself, when he said that what he wanted to do was to build a library, and, at that time, he wanted to build it on the Truman Farm, and that he would give the property to build it; he would donate the property, so that all of his papers could be filed there and it would be a place for study. Well, we had general discussion about it, and then, later, I presume that was, let me say--and I don't know the date--but let me say that was probably 1949--maybe it was '50, about a year later it seems to me. I met with him and we had set up, or he had set up a number of people that he wanted to serve on the board of trustees. George Allen was selected as president. That's the George Allen who wrote the book Presidents That Have Known Me and was quite a Democrat and member of the National Democratic Committee and I think I told you, traveled part way on the campaign tour in '44 when President Truman ran for Vice President. And later the George Allen who helped President Eisenhower buy the farm in

[603]

Gettysburg and his next door neighbor, and he was the man that had a radio-television program Man of the Week in those days and was a director in many, many large companies. Anyway, he was selected as the first president of the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc., a Delaware corporation that, incidentally, had been set up by former Missouri State Supreme Court Judge Tipton's son, who was a lawyer. He did the incorporating of that. George Allen was elected as president, at President Truman's suggestion; Wilmer Waller, a banker and a personal friend of Mr. Truman, and where Mr. Truman did his banking business at the National Bank of Washington, was treasurer; and I was secretary. George Allen took over and held several meetings, set up quotas for each state and selected a chairman of each state and gave them their quotas. I had the western half of Missouri and I've forgotten who had the eastern half--somebody in St. Louis. It seems to me, I remember one state

[604]

and it seems to me--Clinton Anderson, what's his state?

FUCHS: New Mexico.

EVANS: It seems as if it were New Mexico, and I could be wrong, but I believe that's where it was--maybe it was the state of Nevada--but anyway, it was one of the small states--their quota was $7800, and whoever it was sent a check for $7800 and said I've raised the money, my personal contribution to the Library. I remember that. I sent out a letter to people in the western part of Missouri and from my letter for the building of the library I got checks back totaling $60,000. George Allen was a director in AVCO Corporation, and I remember he got $5,000 from AVCO, and some more, but this was all over a period of many months.

I think, along about September or October before Mr. Truman's term expired in January, I

[605]

had learned, being secretary and a member of the board of the corporation, that we had about $90,000 in cash; that I had raised $60,000 in Kansas City and the western part of Missouri, and this man either from New Mexico or Nevada, $7800, and what George Allen had raised, and there was ninety odd thousand dollars in the treasury. So, as was customary, I would walk in to see the President early in the morning before the help would get there, because that was when I could always find him alone and not busy, and I said to him, "Mr. President, what are we going to do about building the Library?"

And he said, "Well, we're going to build it."

And I said, "What are we going to use for money."

He said, "Well, George Allen's got $1,600,000 in the bank. That's what we're going to use for money."

And I said, "If he's got $1,600,000 in the bank, I don't know anything about it. The last report that I heard anything about was about $90,000."

[606]

And he said, "Oh, Tom, you're wrong. George Allen was in here yesterday and told me that he had $1,600,000."

I said, "Well, Mr. President, I'm going over and call on George Allen and find out." So I immediately left the White House and went right to his office and got in to see George. We visited a few minutes and I said, "George, by the way, how much money we got in the Truman Library account?"

And he speaks with a very Southern accent: "Well, to tell you the truth, Tom, I just haven't had an opportunity to look lately." He called some girl by name and bellered out to her, "Miss So-and-So, how much money we got in that there Truman Library account?"

And I said, "Well, George, I'm glad I'm not you."

He said, "Why?"

I said, "Because you told the President that

[607]

you had $1,600,000 cash on hand."

"Oh, no, Tom. I didn't say that. I said I'd get $1,600,000."

I said, "George, that man don't make those kind of mistakes. I asked him what we were going to do about the library, and he told me that you were in yesterday and told him that you had $1,600,000 cash on hand."

"Oh, no."

I said, "Well, I still feel sorry for you," and I got up and walked out and went back to the White House. By the time I got to the White House, George Allen was trying to get in to talk to Mr. Truman, and Matt Connelly or nobody else would let him in. I came in, I shall never forget, Matt Connelly said, "What in hell did you do to George Allen? He insists on talking to the President?"

FUCHS: You mean by phone?

EVANS: Yes. "He wants to come right over. I won't let him."

[608]

I told him what had happened. So Matt went in with me and I told the President exactly what had happened and he was shocked because he was positive there was $1,600,000. I'm almost sure that this was the latter part of November of 1951

FUCHS: '51 or '52?

EVANS: He went out...

FUCHS: He served through '52.

EVANS: It was '52 then. That's right, yes. So, he was shocked. That evening after hours we had another meeting and he said we had to get a new president. He didn't want to try to do anything until after his term expired, and I said, "Boy, it's going to be tough after your term expires."

He said, "Well, that's the way I prefer it."

[609]

And we talked around and Matt Connelly suggested that Basil O'Connor, who headed the National Foundation--March of Dimes, you know, for Roosevelt, would be a man of national known ability and to make a long story short, Matt called Basil. He came down the next day, and Basil O'Connor agreed to accept the presidency. We then had several more meetings--maybe one or two with Mr. Truman and selected some new trustees. I was there for several days that trip, and met with a number of these new trustees that had come down, one, I remember from New York, Abe Feinberg, he was in the hosiery business, and a number of others. And I came to the conclusion, that what we had to do would be to employ an executive secretary and pay a salary, a man to handle the affairs. I couldn't do it and run my business, nobody else could. It was a fulltime job, and somebody that was equipped in the right way that wouldn't embarrass the President

[610]

by using force, and I came to the conclusion in my own mind that the logical, man would be David Lloyd, who was one of his administrative assistants.

FUCHS: Had you known Lloyd quite well?

EVANS: Oh, yes, by seeing him in the White House and being with him on many occasions. And so, I went in to see the President, and suggested that when he was out and the term expired, that why not hire David Lloyd.

And he said, "Oh, you can't hire Dave. Dave's a lawyer and he's got to get out and make a living. He couldn't afford to do a thing like that."

I said, "Oh, well, this wouldn't take more than six months--twelve months at the most. And I think Dave would do it."

"Well," he said, "he'd be fine, but I don't think you can hire him."

[611]

I said, "Well, may I have your permission to hire him if I can?"

And he said, "Yes."

And I said, "Well, let me talk to him and if he agrees, why, you call him in."

And he said, "All right."

So, I talked to Dave and Dave was delighted. I promised him it wouldn't be over a year. He thought he would enjoy it. He knew people all over the country and we decided the easiest way to do to raise the money would be a hundred dollar a plate dinners all over the country, and have Mr. Truman address them. He knew a number of people that would raise the money in the right way. So, he accepted the job, we agreed on a salary, the same as he had been making as an administrative assistant in the White House, and he took the job and did a beautiful job, except for one thing: it didn't last a year; it lasted about, I guess, five years. But he did a wonderful job for the Truman Library, and we did raise over $1,600,000

[612]

and we did build the Library, but it was all raised, all except the first $90,000, all raised after Mr. Truman's term expired in the White House. And he's the one, as I say, Mr. George Allen, got to be a great friend of Mr. Eisenhower, bought the farm in Gettysburg. I never saw George Allen again until I went to the dedication of the Eisenhower Library in Abilene, and needless to say, I didn't have much respect for George after doing Mr. Truman the way he did; but at least, I saw him there and he was all smiles and shaking hands with me, and "What did I think of the Library that he built for Mr. Eisenhower in Abilene?

And I said, "Well, I like the one that you tried to start in Independence better." That was the parting shot I had with him.

FUCHS: What were Mr. Truman's ties with George after this fiasco as president of the library corporation?

EVANS: I don't think he ever saw him again.

[613]

FUCHS: Going back a little bit, earlier there was a meeting at Blevins Davis' home in April '49, and there was a Truman Foundation set up either then or shortly after. Do you recall that?

EVANS: Yes, I faintly recall it, and everything that happened at that particular meeting, as I recall it, was not in good taste. It's very hazy, very definitely, however, in my mind--you've left out one word, there was the Truman Memorial Foundation set up. And I didn't like the word memorial, because to me that means something that's set up after a man dies and passes away. Roger Sermon who was then mayor of Independence, now deceased, was there. It’s too hazy for me to even tell the story about a certain kind of a coin they were going to have minted, let's say it was fifty cents and sell them for five dollars and four dollars and a half would go to the Library. I know I went the next day and made a full, complete, detailed report to Mr. Truman, and as I

[614]

recall, he either wrote me or got me on the phone but said to stop it. He agreed with me that it wasn’t the thing to do, and also that he had no faith whatever in Blevins Davis. In fact, he used a term that maybe I shouldn't even say, but he said, "I never have had any use for him. The only reason I ever got along with him was because of the Boss," meaning Mrs. Truman, "and Margaret." And, of course, it turned out again that he was right. He was supposed to be a very wealthy man. You, of course, know, I'm sure, that he went bankrupt. He was one of those that bragged about the substantial amount that he was going to give to the Library and he never gave a penny. Oh, we had lots of those.

FUCHS: There is a letter in your files dated January 18, 1949 (this would be prior to this meeting with Blevins Davis), in which Harry Vaughan wrote you that Mr. Truman said he couldn't ask you or any of his friends to build a museum for him (and I'm

[615]

quoting pretty closely) "as that would almost be in a class with FDR who dedicated a national shrine to himself." Do you recall that letter and do you have any comment about it? Did he ever talk about that to you?"

EVANS: I don't think I even recall the letter. I don't recall that particular letter from Vaughan, but that probably accounts for a meeting that I had shortly after the election in '48, so that would tie in, at which I said, "You have expressed to me in confidence that fact that you do want to build a library for yourself and that you want to build it on the old Truman farm. Now that you're back in office, now's the time to raise it."

And he said, "Now is the time I don't want to raise it. Anybody could raise it while I'm here in the White House. We’ll wait until nearer the end. And we did wait until nearer the end and we waited till the end, but it was a fluke of

[616]

the story I’ve just said, as that sort of ties in, but I don't remember--had I written Vaughan or something? Was that a reply to a letter of mine or was it a letter that Vaughan...?

FUCHS: I rather think, and I should know, but it's been so long since I looked at that, something, perhaps, had been said and he knew you had been in on certain discussions. Vaughan wrote that Mr. Truman had said he didn't want them to do it this way--build a museum. I just thought you might recall that Mr. Truman, in a sense, changed his mind. I don't know whether you'd call it a national shrine, but he did build a library which was the thing to do, of course.

EVANS: Well, I don't think Mr. Truman ever had anything in mind except a library for educational purposes. I think that museum developed in Harry Vaughan's mind because I never heard H.S.T. ever once refer to a museum. Now, while we are discussing

[616a]

the library, this might be the proper place to discuss the intention of Mr. Truman to put it on the Truman farm...

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: ...and for me to clear that up. That was fully his intention, and of course, the Truman farm then, was not supposed to be so valuable--I'm talking about value by the acres. As I remember, on the east side of the then 71 Highway, was where he proposed to donate, it seems to me, ten acres, but even at $200 an acre, that was more money than Mr. Truman could afford to give, because he certainly was a poor man. He did have the farm, he and his sister Mary, and his brother, Vivian. And I didn't want to see him give an acre away, let alone ten acres or twenty acres for it. He was insistent that that’s where he wanted it. I said, "Well, if that's where you want it, what we ought to do is raise the money to buy the

[617]

ground from you so we can give you the money."

No, he wouldn't hear of that.

Then there was a group of people who very much wanted to build the Truman Library on the then University of Kansas City campus, you know where it is, on Rockhill Road. I've forgotten who was the head of the University at that particular time. I well remember going out with a group of men and I'm sorry to say I can't remember...

FUCHS: Was that Clarence Decker?

EVANS: He could have been the instigator of it, yes, and Dr.--he's on our Institute Board, the man with the little black mustache, from New York--Dr. McGrath. Well, anyway, that's beside the point. We looked at it and it was a beautiful site, just as you come south on Rockhill Road before making the curve going up by Menorah Hospital on that big, beautiful spot where they set out for the Truman Library. It couldn't have been a more

[618]

beautiful spot. And being a Kansas Citian, I was delighted to get the Library in Kansas City, and I thought it was all set. I took Mr. Truman out to look at it. He wasn't very enthused; in fact, he wasn't enthused at all. He didn't say very much about it except I knew he was not enthusiastic. That's of course when he was out of the White House and had his office then down in the Federal Reserve Bank building, and we were going to lunch almost every day together because, as I have said, he didn't know how to get around. It had been so many years that he was tied up and watched over by the Secret Service, that I had to show him how to get around, how to pay a check, and how to pay a tip. So, I said, "Mr. President, you don't seem very enthusiastic about this University,"

He said, "I'm not. I don't want to put it here. I'll tell you where I'd like to put it but I don't see any possibility of it, I'd like

[619]

to put it in Independence."

And I said, "Well why in the hell didn't you tell me. I could do something about it?"

And he said, "Because I didn't want to cause any trouble."

I never said another word. After we finished lunch that day, I called Roger Sermon who was then mayor of Independence--no, not Roger Sermon, the man who was our city manager and went to Phoenix...?

FUCHS: Bob Weatherford.

EVANS: Bob Weatherford. And I said, "Bob, I just learned something that I think is of tremendous importance to you. I'd like to come right out and see you." So, I went out to see Bob and told him what the President had said, and he said, "That's the greatest news I've ever heard. I think we ought to get the city council to give him Slover Park."

And he took me over, and that's the first

[620]

time I knew where Slover Park was, which is, of course, now the site of the Library; and we talked about it and he met with Mr. Truman and myself and Lon Gentry (Lon Gentry being the architect who later drew the plans of the Library), and Lon Gentry said it was beautiful except we needed, I think, three more square blocks in connection therewith, across the street east. Bob Weatherford, the mayor, said, "Well, we'll acquire it for you. I can get it done." And darned if he didn't get the city council to authorize the buying of the little houses that were across the street, and the transferring of title of that park and that property to the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc. That’s how it happened to be in Independence.

FUCHS: There was another incident involving Clinton Anderson, from New Mexico, and once the Secretary of Agriculture, and subsequently senator from New Mexico, involving fundraising methods, do

[621]

you recall that?

EVANS: No.

FUCHS: In 1952.

EVANS: In fundraising for the Library?

FUCHS: Yes, he was soliciting in 1952 while Truman was yet President. I just wondered what your comments were about that.

EVANS: I don't know anything about it, Jim. Where did you get the information?

FUCHS: Well, it was common knowledge. I believe there is some indication of it in your records, but it was in the newspapers and it's in the papers, at least, of Mr. Truman, in that Anderson sent out this form letter and there was quite a kick because they thought it was a method of pressure and improper...

EVANS: Oh, yes, I do now, since you mentioned that,

[622]

remember that, That's when Mr. Truman was still in the White House. Yes, I remember now, because he was upset about it, Mr. Truman was. Somebody had sent it to him, I mean this article, and that's when, I think, he told me that "We're not going to try to raise any money until my term expires."

And I remember saying, "Well, Mr. President, that's like trying to swim in a swimming pool without water."

He was upset about it. I'd forgotten all about it. And I never would have thought of it until you used the word, "pressure." And he said, "I'm not going to stand for that kind of pressure." But that's about all I do remember about it now.

FUCHS: I see. There's a letter or so in your file relating to a visit you and Mr. Truman, Margaret, Vivian, Mary Jane, Ed Neild, and Lon Gentry made to the Truman farm in early 1953, to select a site for the Library. Do you recall anything

[623]

about that particular visit and some of the reactions of Mr. Truman's family?

EVANS: Only to this extent. I remember going out to the farm and--Mr. Neild was from New Orleans, wasn't he?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: He came up on the Kansas City Southern, Southern Belle, and they stopped the train out at the Truman farm and let him off. You know, it goes right through the farm. Mr. Neild was the architect that Mr. Truman used in building the county courthouse here in K.C., and wanted him to be the architect on the Truman Library, but under the architect's--I guess is the proper terminology--rules and regulations, he had to have a local architect. So he and Lon Gentry, who was local, worked together. We went over all the various sites, because at one time the President wanted to put it on the east side of

[624]

71 Highway, as I told you a while ago. They thought, some of his folks, and particularly, I believe, Vivian, that that was much more expensive ground than would be on the road that goes in front of the old Truman house. Now, is that Blue Ridge Road?

FUCHS: Blue Ridge Extension?

EVANS: Whatever it is. Mr. Neild, I think--it didn't really make a great deal of difference (this is my impression)--saw that both Vivian and Margaret were so opposed to giving up that ground over on the east side of 71 Highway, that they sold the idea of putting it over on the north, across the road from where the old Truman home was. That's where it was planned to be put. And, at the President's urging, he said, "We ought to go down and buy this strip of ground or piece of property--it can be bought right now, because I don't want a bunch of hot dog stands put up there when that

[625]

library is built, I think Mr. Neild suggested that. Right back on Grandview Road, right at the side, was property they didn't own, and it would be adjacent to where the Library would be. I think Mr. Neild said it would be a shame not to have that property because it would detract from the building and they could put up most anything there. I suggested that we get Mr. Bill Deramus, Sr., who was president of the Kansas City Southern Railroad and a great friend of Mr. Truman, to negotiate for the purchase of this, being my intention that the Harry S. Truman Library Corporation pay for it; but Mr. Deramus could do a better job of negotiating for it, as if it was something that the railroad wanted. Mr. Truman said it was a good idea, so I went to see Bill Deramus and he did negotiate for it and he did buy this ground for, I think, oh, I could tell by looking in the records, but it seems to me, for about $17,000, I talked to Dave Lloyd about it, and to Basil O'Connor and Mr. Waller and to Dean Acheson, who were members of the executive

[626]

committee, and we agreed to go ahead and buy it. So, I told Mr. Deramus to go ahead and buy it and when he got ready and bought it and turned the deed over, he said, "Now, that's my gift; I'm giving it to the corporation." And so it didn't cost us anything. Then I sensed from that particular time out there at the farm with the former President and his family, that most of them were opposed to him giving it away, that he really couldn't afford it. Of course, you and I know, that it later turned out to be very, very valuable ground, because they built the shopping center there, and, I think, Miss Mary Jane got something like sixty-five cents a square foot for three acres of her property where a store was built. But anyway, that was before the value was up. That's when I started to work on the story I told you a while ago and got the University of Kansas City to agree to give us the site and then learned that, actually, Mr. Truman really wanted it in Independence.

[627]

And again I have to be guessing (I have no proof of this or anything else), I think President Truman, originally, definitely, and positively, wanted it on the Truman farm. He knew that Vivian, particularly, and Miss Mary to a degree, and Margaret, a little bit, were opposed to him giving it away. And, I think, Mrs. Truman, and this is my guess, said, "Well, actually, it ought to be put in Independence." I think that's where he got the idea and he wanted to do it but he didn't know how and he didn't want to say anything about it, and actually, when he told me, and I told you, I went right out to see Bob Weatherford. Bob Weatherford is the guy that got Slover Park. Now, you and I both know how much better it is to be in Independence instead of Grandview, It's so much more accessible.

FUCHS: What happened to the piece of property that Bill Deramus purchased?

EVANS: There's two Bill Deramuses, by the way. Bill

[628]

Deramus, Sr., and Bill Deramus, Jr. Bill Deramus, Sr., who bought the property and turned it over to the Library, was president of the Kansas City Southern. Bill Deramus, Jr., his son, was president of another railroad, believe it or not--Chicago Great Western. Then Bill Deramus, Sr., who gave us the property, about a year and a half ago had a stroke and is in horrible shape physically now, still alive--nobody has seen him--in a year and a half. And his son resigned his position with the other railroad and he is now president of the Kansas City Southern--that's Bill Deramus, Jr.

But you asked what we did with the property. On this property was a house and we rented the property and had income coming from it. If I remember right, about ninety dollars a month for many years. Then, when we were in the final stages of building the Library in Independence and needing all the money we could get to complete it, Vivian, at the instructions of the executive

[629]

committee of the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc., found a buyer. It was some church that bought it and built a church there and used the home for the minister’s home. I've forgotten what we got for it, but, of course, the cash went into the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc.

FUCHS: What about the proposal that the University of Missouri made through the Dean, at that time, Elmer Ellis, that the Library be built there? Was Mr. Truman ever seriously considering that?

EVANS: No, I think what actually happened--I'm trying to think of the man's name who--Pauley, if you'll recall, was appointed to, what--Secretary of the Navy?

FUCHS: Ed Pauley. Under Secretary of the Navy.

EVANS: …and could not get confirmed by Congress. He's an immensely wealthy man. I was once told by Mr. Truman that Ed Pauley had an income of—

[630]

now, this doesn't make sense. I’ve never forgotten it and I'm inclined to think he must have gotten his decimal point in the wrong place, but anyway, he definitely told me that Ed Pauley had an income of $90,000,000 a year from oil under the ocean out on the California coast. Now that's quite a lot of money. But anyway, Ed Pauley I knew very well; would see him, of course, in the White House, being around Mr. Truman, knew him, and Mr. Truman was so seriously ill with his--you know, when they thought maybe he might pass away...do you remember?

FUCHS: When he had his gall bladder operation in '54?

EVANS: Yes. And I was over at the old Research Hospital with him morning, noon and night, with Mrs. Truman, trying to help her; and incidentally, Dave Noyes was here then and stayed with me and I've always had a very kind feeling for Dave on account of that; it's one of the few nice things that I know about, that he did. But anyway, Ed Pauley got a hold of

[631]

me on the telephone. He may, I think, have confirmed this in a letter and if so it's in my files that are in the Library. Do you ever remember seeing a letter from Ed Pauley to me?

FUCHS: I believe I did see it, but I've heard this story.

EVANS: About putting the Library on the campus of the University of...

FUCHS: California at Los Angeles,

EVANS: At Los Angeles. Anyway, whether it was in letter form or not, he called me I know and talked to me, and he said, "There's no sense in the President giving up any of his farm or worrying about the thing; the place where this thing belongs is out at the University of California at Los Angeles. I will donate the ground and we will build the library; you won't have to raise any funds, and besides that, we've got a twenty-eight room house that we'll give the President and Mrs.

[632]

Truman, and four or five bathrooms."

And I said, "Ed, you don't think for one minute that the President and Mrs. Truman would want to live in that lousy state of California of yours, do you?"

And he said, "Yes, it's the finest state in the Union."

And I said, "That's what you think. He thinks Missouri is and I agree with him. He wouldn't be interested."

"Well, take it up with him."

"Well, the man's at the point of death. I'm not going to take it up with him and if I could the answer would be 'no."'

And I was real upset that a fellow at such a critical stage of the President's life would call about something like that. And I knew--I didn't have to ask him--I knew Mr. Truman would not be interested in anything like that. So, after he got much better and I talked to

[633]

Mr. Truman, he said, "Well, you're right, I wouldn't think of putting it out there."

So, as a result, if Dr. Ellis--was he then Dean at the University of Missouri?

FUCHS: He was then Dean and subsequently President.

EVANS: He said, "Well, if you would consider it at all, we could certainly give you a beautiful site at Columbia." And I remember, I was with him because I knew Dr. Ellis very well, as you know. And the President said, "No, I wouldn't want it there for several reasons. One, it would not be as accessible as it would be in Kansas City or Independence and it really ought to be in Independence, Kansas City being a suburb of Independence, it's not hard to get to." You know, that's Mr. Truman's saying. "And I wouldn't put it any place except in Independence or Grandview or Kansas City."

So that's the only thing that come up about it, and

[634]

I think maybe I wrote a letter for the Board, because on the Board of Curators was an associate of mine--he and I were in business together, Lester E. Cox--and told him that the President under no circumstances would be interested in putting it at the University of Missouri.

FUCHS: When you walked over the site with Mr. Truman and, I suppose, Bob Weatherford, in 1954, do you recall some of Mr. Truman's remarks at that time? This is at Slover Park.

EVANS: No, I don't think I remember any particular remarks, other than the fact that he was just as tickled as he could be with the site, and we stood there--I think you've got some pictures out there in my book, haven't you, of us standing there and looking--Mayor Weatherford and Mr. Truman, myself, Lon Gentry, I believe Dave Lloyd--and you can see the skyline from up there of Kansas

[635]

City? He was just as pleased as anything I've ever seen. I think he was more pleased and happy about that than even he was election night in 1948, believe it or not, of that site and that's where his library is.

FUCHS: Reportedly, he made some remarks about placing an observatory and perhaps a Federal weather station there. Do you recall hearing that, and, if so, was he serious about that?

EVANS: Oh, I think he was serious. I think he's still serious. Gee, I hope he doesn't see this because he's liable to get awful mad at me. You'd better not ever show it to him, but every time he mentions an observatory and a weather station up on top of where the oval room is--you know where I mean--on the Library, I always change the subject because I would hate like the dickens to see that beautiful building have an observatory or a weather station or anything. And so I just

[636]

don't talk about it. But I think he still has it in his mind.

FUCHS: In 1954 there was a benefit for the Library fundraising campaign held in Kansas City. Do you recall anything that stands out about that occasion?

EVANS: Oh, I recall many, many things about that occasion, because that was quite a job. That was the hundred dollar a plate dinner, and I've forgotten who the general chairman was, but I'm sure I did 90 percent of the work on it. Do you recall who the general chairman was?

FUCHS: No. I don't.

EVANS: Well, I shouldn't say 90 percent of the work; I did 90 percent of the arranging. For instance, one of the best things I did was get Joe McGee and his two boys, young Tommy McGee and Joe, Jr., to handle the mailing out of the invitations for

[637]

that dinner and the checks that came in--that's a big job. Both of Joe's boys are at the Old American Life Insurance Company down at 50th and Oak, and they're set up to do that kind of work and they handled all of that--did a beautiful job. But I'll take credit for getting them to do it. I think one of the things that I shall always remember, and I've told this to the President on numerous occasions, and even today he'll often, when we're in a group where it's appropriate, suggest that I tell this story regarding the master of ceremonies at that particular dinner. We wanted to keep it non-partisan, out of politics, and I was trying to think who we could get to preside at that dinner who was a Republican. And one of my good friends, as you know, is Harry Darby, the National Republican Committeeman from Kansas, the man that's always been very, very friendly to Mr. Truman, whom Mr. Truman likes very much. And so, I went to Harry Darby, who is a good friend

[638]

of mine, asked if it would be possible for him to consider it; I'd like to have him think it over. Number one, I'd like to have him, but number two, and most important, was the fact that he being a Republican would keep it out of politics, but I wanted him to think it over and not give me an answer right then because I knew a lot of people would resent--even though it was a non-partisan dinner and it was for raising funds for the Library--that a lot of his friends would resent him taking part in it with a former Democratic President. He said, "By golly, I don't have to think about it. I'll be delighted to and if I've got any friends that don't like the idea of me being master of ceremonies, I don't want them as friends. I'd be tickled to death to do it."

And, of course, he did, And he did a beautiful job, I think that was the one thing that was in my mind and it was a very successful dinner and we raised a lot of money.

[639]

FUCHS: There was a suggestion by your former lawyer, Harry Schwimmer, that there be a mail solicitation. How successful was that? Did that come off?

EVANS: Where did you get the idea that Harry Schwimmer suggested that?

FUCHS: Out of a document in your file, apparently.

EVANS: Well, I don't think Harry Schwimmer, Jim, had anything to do with that, although we did try out a solicitation by mail. Whose idea it was, I don't know, but Dave Lloyd handled the details, and, of course, it doesn't make any difference whose suggestion it was, but anyway, this is exactly what happened.

In Philadelphia, they were having a hundred dollar a plate dinner--no, where's Mr. Cyrus Eaton from?

FUCHS: Cleveland, Ohio.

EVANS: Cleveland, Ohio instead of Philadelphia, and

[640]

Mr. Eaton had himself agreed to pay for all the cost of the dinner including the actual dinner, table decorations, menu, the orchestra, everything that goes with a hundred dollar a plate dinner, so that the hundred dollar a plate would definitely be net to the Library. And so, Dave (whose ever idea this was) decided that in the Cleveland area we would make a blanket mailing outlining briefly what the Truman Library was, and if anyone wanted to give any money--and this was in an envelope form where they could write their name and address and they would be listed in the book as a contributor--and to put money or check in this envelope and return postage would be paid. We were to send this out blanket mailing--you know--bulk mailing, without names, so every box holder, so to speak, every occupant would receive one. I've forgotten the figures, but the cost of printing, the cost of mailing, and everything, was figured out so that we would have to--I've forgotten what the figure

[641]

was--what it would cost, but it was quite a bit--substantial--before we could actually make any money and if it worked there we would try it in other cities, that we had the hundred dollar a plate dinner, and maybe throughout the United States. I think we only put out, in a certain area of Cleveland, come to think about it, a hundred thousand of these, which, when you pay postage on a hundred thousand and printing for a hundred thousand, is a lot of money. And I know we didn't take into consideration the job and the detail of opening them up and sorting out the money and the checks and the nasty notes that we got back, because that fell to me and Mrs. Evans, who worked night after night after night of opening up literally thousands of envelopes; and, actually, the return was not sufficient to justify the tremendous work and the expense. It had this little envelope with a picture of the Library. I'm sure you've seen it. Well, it was sent to

[642]

Independence and we'd pick it up at the post office. I would take it and we'd have, oh, hundreds and hundreds of letters every day, and certainly I had no time. I had no help to do it, so I'd take them home and Mrs. Evans and I would open them. We'd lay the dollar bills in one pile and the five dollar bills in another pile and a few ten dollar bills and a very few twenty dollar bills and once in a while a fifty or a hundred and numbers of checks. And, the nasty letters. And I found out in doing that, that if it was possible to keep my wife from getting a hold of one of them that had a nasty letter in it, it was the best thing to do, because she'd just get so mad that, oh, she’d just hit the ceiling, get so mad that she'd almost get sick if they’d say something nasty about Mr. Truman. And I want to tell you there was some awful, horrible, nasty things that was done. My wife opened one of those envelopes and here was a piece of toilet

[643]

paper that had been used, and: "This is my gift to Harry Truman." I tell you, my wife was so mad, I thought she was going to have a heart attack. It's awful what people will do.

FUCHS: This same method of solicitation was subsequently used in other areas, at least in Independence, or the Kansas City area, wasn't it?

EVANS: Yes, I believe we did try that out at the same time. We tried it out in Cleveland because of the dinner and we tried it out here because of the publicity. And neither one of them actually paid off in sufficient money.

FUCHS: I noted that Mr. Truman insisted on the ground being broken in 1955 even though at that time only one million dollars of the estimated one million and three quarters needed was raised. Who was urging him not to do it at that time. I read something that indicated there must have been a suggestion that they wait to break the ground.

[644]

Do you recall anything in that connection?

EVANS: Certainly not from me. If there was, I didn't know anything about it. After the ground was given to the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc. by the city of Independence--no question in my mind but what we were going to build it.

FUCHS: So you didn't have any apprehensions about going ahead in '55 with the ground breaking--that the money would be coming in?

EVANS: No, I don't know where you got that idea.

FUCHS: And then, also, there was a note that the contract was awarded to Massman-Patti and there was a suggestion by Dean Acheson and Basil O'Connor and Wilmer Waller that bids should have been asked for and Mr. Truman was convinced that they weren't necessary and went ahead and signed to have the funds transferred to the bank and go ahead with the construction.

[645]

EVANS: Well, Jim, that's right and that's a long, long story. I'll try to tell you. It's very long--hope you got a lot of tape here.

Mr. Massman, H. J. Massman, of the Massman Construction Comapny, has been in the construction business for many, many years--a good friend of Mr. Truman; a man that has built reservoirs, done a lot of river work, built lakes. For instance the Grand River Dam in Oklahoma was built by Mr. Massman at a cost of $90,000,000. Oh, he's done gigantic work all over the country--many dams and bridges and things like that. Over the Mississippi River at Greenville, Mississippi (I just happened to be down there not too very long ago), there's a great big brass plaque: "Built By Massman Construction Company, Kansas City, Missouri at a cost of..." I don't know, several million dollars. Anyway, Mr. Massman said, "Mr. President," (I was with him one day having lunch), "when you get ready to build your Library I'll form a joint venture with Mr, Patti,"

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who is another contractor here in Kansas City, "and Mr. Patti and I will build your Library at absolutely no profit to us."

And Mr. Truman, of course, was most appreciative. When we got ready to build it, it was decided that we would have to have a clerk of the works to check the materials that went in and he would pay the bills and give me the receipts and I would reimburse him the money. The main account of the corporation was carried in Washington in Waller's bank and then when I would send in the invoices they would send me the money. I established an account in the bank in Independence--I think it had $20,000 in it and we’ll say they had $10,000 of accounts to pay--why, our clerk of the works, Jerry Bryant, would issue the checks and give me the invoices and I'd send them on in and get the $10,000 and go back to the bank. That's the way we built the Library, but I'm ahead of my story.

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The architect estimated the cost of the building at $1,700,000 and it came time to sign a contract with Mr. Massman. I had lunch with Mr. Truman and Mr. Truman said, "Harry, I want you to build the Library and you go ahead and start on it and I'll sign this contract."

I said, "No, Mr. President, you don't want to sign the contract. It's up to the corporation. Basil O'Connor, the president, or Dean Acheson, the vice president, or myself, as secretary, or Waller as treasurer will sign it, but we'll have to have authorization of the executive committee." And I said, "I suggest that you call Mr. Dean Acheson and tell him that you want Mr. Massman to build it--Mr. Massman and Patti--and that you want to send the contract on to him and let him sign it. He's a lawyer and he’ll understand it and he knows you."

So, he went to the phone and called him up and Dean Acheson didn't want to do it. "Mr. President, you can't do that. We’re responsible to

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the general public that created that fund, and we can't do it that way. You have to make it on bids and the lowest bid gets it. Otherwise we'll be criticized. We can't sign a contract like that."

Mr. Truman doesn't waste much time with people like that, he hung up and he turned around to Mr. Massman and he said, "Harry, you go ahead and start building the thing; if they don't pay for it, I will." And then he said to me, "I want you to go back to Washington and get approval."

"You want me to go back?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "How am I going to get it if you can’t get it?"

He said, "I don't know, but it's up to you to get it. If you don't get it, I'll pay for it myself,"

So, I go back to Washington and I meet with Dean Acheson, Basil O'Connor, Wilmer Waller, and there may have been Charlie Murphy there, I'm not

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sure. I well, remember Mr. Waller and Mr. Dean Acheson. And I said, "Here's the situation: Here's Mr. Massman ready to build this library at no cost, no profit; here is Eddie Jacobson's brother, A. D. Jacobson, the plumber, who is willing to put in the plumbing and the air-conditioning at no profit to him. That's why we're going to be able to finish and build this library for a lot less than $1,750,000, which we don't have that much on hand."

And Dean Acheson said, "Well, Tom, you just can't do it. You and the President may know Mr. Massman, but we have no guarantee that it won't run $2,000,000."

"Well, it won't because we know better than that."

"Well, now that's the way you people do business out in Missouri, but that isn't the way you can do business. We're the ones responsible to the people that's given the money and this has got to

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be done on a bid basis. We've got to have a firm contract and whoever builds that has got to put up a bond guaranteeing that they will perform."

I said, "You expect Mr. Massman to put up a bond that he will perform when he's not making a penny out of it, and he's willing to do this at no profit which the ordinary man would get probably forty-fifty-sixty thousand dollars in profit. You expect him to put up a bond?"

He said, "He'll have to."

"Well, he won't do it, and furthermore, he's going to build the Library whether you say so or not."

"Well, he can't."

""Oh, " I said, "he can. He's already got instructions."

"From whom?"

"From a man by the name of Harry S. Truman--told him to go ahead and build it and if you don't o.k. it, he'd pay for it himself."

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"Did he say that?"

I said, "He certainly did." By the way, Jim, this had taken over three hours of a long conference in Washington.

"Did he say that?"

I said, "Yes, he said that. I was there when he told Mr. Massman and they're going ahead right now and building it. They got bulldozers out there and they're leveling the ground."

He turned to Waller and he said, "What are we going to do, Wilmer?" (That was Mr. Waller's first name.)

"Why, I know what you're going to do," I said, "you're going to agree and sign the contract. It's the only thing you can do,"

He said, "I guess that's right," and they agreed to sign it.

So, we built it that way and the contract was only that they were authorized to go ahead and

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build it in accordance with the plans and specifications at no profit to them and then we went through and we got practically everything on the basis of cost plus two percent in some cases. For instance, all of the furnishings in there that I bought myself, contracted for, we bought from Duff and Repp, all except the Oval Room. And we bought it at cost plus five percent which was about, at least, forty percent less than you'd pay for it. This Indiana limestone that was used to build the Library, was furnished to us by a man who only charged us half price. So, if we had built the Library on a bid basis, and no chiseling--no friends to help out--that building would have cost, in my opinion, way over $2,000,000. As it was, if I remember right, it cost $1,689,000; so, I think we saved at least $400,000 on the building, and that did not include the ground that was given to us by the city of Independence.

FUCHS: What about the architects? How were they

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remunerated?

EVANS: Well, architects get a percentage of the total amount of the cost of the building. Mr. Neild, who was the main architect died, incidentally, while he was here, of a heart attack in Kansas City. We settled with his estate on a reasonable amount. I've forgotten what it was, and then we had some difficulty with our local architects in the fact that they wanted the full price--the full fee--and I didn't think it was right. We had quite a lot of discussion and we reduced that and paid for it.

FUCHS: Well, wasn't Mr. Gentry a good friend of President Truman?

EVANS: Oh, yes, they were good friends, and there was no difficulty except I think Mr. Gentry thought he had worked so hard on the plans and specifications that he was entitled to a full fee and I didn't think so (that's what creates arguments)

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and with Dave Lloyd, as the go-between, we settled it.

FUCHS: What was the relationship between the Neild firm--I believe it was Neild and Somdal--and Gentry-Voskamp. In other words, did one of them do a certain portion of the design and the others...

EVANS: No, as I told you before, the President wanted Mr. Neild to do it because he did the Jackson County Courthouse which was built when Mr. Truman was presiding judge. He had a great respect and admiration for his architectural ability and he told him. And he had him come here and look at the ground, as you know, out at Grandview. Then he went and looked at this. And what Mr. Truman did not know was, that, as live said before, under the code of ethics--I guess that's the proper word--Mr. Neild, being an architect from New Orleans, must have a local architect associated

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with him. He couldn't do the job without a local architect, and so Mr. Truman had him hire Gentry and Voskamp as associates. That's under the architects' rules and regulations. So, actually Gentry and Voskamp were associates on a minimum fee, let me say. Mr. Neild was the boss, he was the boss architect, however, they were here locally and he had to clear everything with them. He told them, he didn't ask them, he told them, but it was all handled through Neild and Voskamp's office at a very minimum fee, as compared to an architect's fee. Then, unfortunately, Mr. Neild died. And, then, that eliminated Neild and Somdal. That eliminated the firm, and then Gentry and Voskamp took over as the architects. And actually, where the discussion took place was, Gentry wanted the full architect's fee less the amount that we had paid Neild and his partner--paid the estate after his death. I didn't think they were entitled to it and we didn't pay that full fee. See what I mean?

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FUCHS: And I'm sure you’ll recall, there was an original design for a building which was quite radically different from the final design. At whose instigation was the design changed so radically?

EVANS: Gentry, I think, on his own, drew that original design without having been authorized, and submitted it to the President. That was before we were ready to build. Mr. Gentry has a great habit of doing that. As an illustration of what I mean, the President expressed a desire to be buried, as you know, right outside his office of the Truman Library, and Lon Gentry heard about it. He went to great detail in drawing up plans and specifications of a little chapel and everything; and I happened to get those, and I thought, "Well, that's what Mr. Truman wanted."

And not too long ago, I went to Mr. Truman with it and he said, "Why, I never heard of such a thing.

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I don’t want anything like that at all under no circumstances."

I then went to Lon, who has been ill, and not very well, and I said, "Lon, how come you drew these?"

"Well, I just drew them for the boss so he'd have something to look at."

So, that's what he did with several original drawings.

FUCHS: So this final exterior design, elevation and so forth, is what Mr. Neild...

EVANS: ...came up with, which was approved by Mr. Truman.

One of the reasons for my being a little--what shall I use--peeved, upset--Mr. Gentry is supposed to be an outstanding architect, but, for instance, the building was built and complete and we were moving in and found out he hadn't made any arrangements for plug-ins for telephones in your office or any of the rest of the offices. It

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was a horrible mistake, I got terribly mad about it, We had to tear out the building after it was done to put those in. So, I wasn't very happy about it to be perfectly honest with you. Because I was living and sleeping and eating that Library for about five years.

FUCHS: Were the approaches to sub-contractors--I guess you'd call them sub-contractors--to furnish their services and materials, and so forth, at a substantially reduced rate, often forthcoming from them, or were they usually by a little bit of pressure from Tom Evans and others?

EVANS: I don't think there was ever any pressure of any kind used on anyone, like on Mr. Massman. Certainly there was no pressure used on him to build it without profit. That was his proposition and Mr. Truman said, "No, Harry, I don't want you to do that."

"Well, that's the only way we'll build it.

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That will be our contribution."

I said to Mr. Massman, "Would you have any objection to using A. D. Jacobson, the President's old haberdashery partner's brother?"

"Oh, no. He's the greatest plumbing and heating man in town. It would be fine."

So, I said, "Well, should I get in touch with him or you?"

He said, "Well, I think you ought to get in touch with him and tell him what we're doing and tell him to get in touch with us."

Well, I got Doc on the phone and I said, "Mr. Massman and Patti are building this at no profit to them, and they don't want to take bids from sub-contractors, but they want people that are close to the President on these sub-contracts," and he said, "Well, we'll get in touch with them and we'll do it at no profit on our end of the work."

So, Massman said, "Do you know John St.

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Clair of Evans Electrical Company?"

"Yes, I know him very well."

"Let's you and I meet with John."

So we had lunch with John, and Massman told him that he and Patti was going to build the building and he said, "We'd like to have you do the electrical work. We're doing it at no profit."

He said, "Well, I've got quite an overhead and a lot of people associated with me. I don't believe I can do it at no profit, but I'll do it at our cost, plus," I think, "five percent."

So, he had a five percent profit. Now he said, "Now, I've got a man who would like to supply all the electrical material at cost plus five percent," which was Colombian Electric. He got that man. So everybody was a volunteer and the man that offered the limestone. Nobody had any pressure put on him,

FUCHS: Well, "pressure" was an unfortunate term I used, but was it suggested that "We're doing so-and-so

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and could you do pretty good by us too." and it snow-balled, more or less.

EVANS: Actually, there was hardly even a question asked. Everybody volunteered. I had a call from a man I didn't know, who's gotten to be a good friend of mine, at Duff and Repp, saying, "We'd like very much to supply the furnishings and we'd like to do it at a very reasonable, small profit." And they did--cost plus five percent, which is a tremendous savings. Everybody was delighted to do it and hardly did you even have to ask.

FUCHS: Mr. Truman had some differences with Jeffrey Hillelson, as we discussed earlier, and when he was defeated for Congressman by George Christopher there was some talk then that he might be appointed Regional Director for the General Services Administration.

EVANS: Who?

FUCHS: Jeffrey Hillelson.

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FUCHS: Well, there's a letter in your file from Dave Lloyd that Mr. Truman had written Charlie Murphy saying that he wouldn't turn the Library over to the Government if Hillelson were appointed GSA Regional Director.

EVANS: Is that so, I didn't know that.

FUCHS: Well, it's something that could have easily slipped your mind. I wondered if you had any further comments about it?

EVANS: Well, not about that particular one, and I've already told you about Hillelson and the charges against Edgar Hinde.

No. I never knew that Mr. Hillelson was--oh, I guess I did too, but there wasn't much more chance of Hillelson being made General Service--well, he might have been, too, because Eisenhower was in; but anyway, Mr. Hillelson then was appointed postmaster of Kansas City. Incidentally, he had to take the examination, I'm told, three

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times before he could get a passing grade and then he finally made it and got the appointment, but he had to be confirmed, And all during the nearly eight years of the Eisenhower Administration, he never could get confirmed. And the reason he couldn't get confirmed was because Mr. Truman never got over the horrible thing Mr. Hillelson did to Edgar Hinde. Now that's the true story. One of the first acts that was done after Mr. Kennedy was elected was to appoint a postmaster in Kansas City. Mr. Bland was appointed, who was a personal selection of Mr. Bolling, a man who had never been in politics at all, and he was immediately confirmed.

FUCHS: Well, I think that Hinde business occurred shortly after the Republicans went into office.

EVANS: It occurred right after Hillelson was elected. He was elected in the same election that Eisenhower was elected President, but he was the one

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who started it.

FUCHS: It was in the newspapers that he might be appointed to the GSA directorship, this was in ‘57, and then there is another letter in your file which you wrote to Dave Lloyd, which was two days later than this earlier letter in which Lloyd wrote you that Mr. Truman said he had written Murphy that he wouldn't turn the Library over to the Government if Hillelson were appointed--and you wrote Lloyd saying that you had "talked to my friend in Kansas City, Kansas about the matter we discussed on the telephone, and off the record, he agrees that we are absolutely right. He will do everything he can to stop it." And I wondered if this was regarding Harry Darby and Jeffrey Hillelson?

EVANS: That's right. He did that as well as the charges. Mr. Darby handled it, because he was very close to Mr. Eisenhower.

FUCHS: Did Harry Darby get reimbursed for this painting

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of Eisenhower which he purchased for the Truman Library?

EVANS: No, sir, he did not. That's an unfortunate situation, something I've always regretted. I've talked to him on two or three occasions. You see, I said to President Truman, and I thought we ought to have a painting of President Eisenhower in the Library and much to my amazement, he used his famous saying, "I agree, I agree."

He said, "Where are we going to get one?"

I said, "I only know one place to get one and that's to talk to Harry Darby."

"You go right ahead."

So I talked to Harry Darby and he got Eisenhower to sit for it by this famous artist. He didn't like it because there was one holiday that he had to spend sitting. It came to $5,000, and he was going to get a group of men together and each put in a certain amount and pay for it.

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He asked if I would attend the meeting and I said, "Yes," and explained that I'd asked for it and Mr. Truman had asked for it and that he'd gotten it. The painting was shipped to us, Jim, if you remember, it was still a little wet. Do you remember when it came?

FUCHS: Yes.

EVANS: I kept after Harry, "When are you going to have this meeting; when are you going to have this meeting?"

And it came time to pay for it and Harry Darby gave me his check payable to the Harry S. Truman Library, Inc., for $5,000, because he could take it off his income tax, and we paid for the painting with his $5,000. "One of these days we’ll do it," and he just never did. So instead of getting ten men that give $500 apiece, one man gave $5,000. That was Harry Darby.