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H. H. Halvorson Oral History Interview

Oral History Interview with
H. H. Halvorson

Kansas City, Missouri, realtor and business associate of Harry S. Truman in the Community Savings and Loan Association, 1924-32

Kansas City, Missouri
July 21, 1967
by J. R. Fuchs

[Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed]


Notice
This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

See also H. H. Halvorson Papers finding aid.

RESTRICTIONS
This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened November 1967
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed]



Oral History Interview with
H. H. Halvorson

Kansas City, Missouri
July 21, 1967
by J. R. Fuchs

[1]

FUCHS: Mr. Halvorson, we have been talking about the gentlemen who were on the board of directors and also the officers of the Community Savings and Loan Association. I wonder if you would identify them by name and tell me who they were?

HALVORSON: There was Joseph Cartella, who was a salesman for Schenley and Company, liquor dealers.

FUCHS: Was Mr. Cartella acquainted with Mr. Truman to any extent?

HALVORSON: Oh, yes, I don't know how great an extent, but he was acquainted.

FUCHS: C. C. Daniel was a director.

[2]

HALVORSON: C. C. Daniel was a director and I think he was from Independence; and his daughter-in-law still has what is known as the Central Storage Company in the Central Industrial District, which is the oldest public service warehouse in Kansas City. And it came through the Newby Transfer Company, and the Clagett Company, and Clagett was from Independence, as I remember.

The next one was myself.

FUCHS: Just to get it in the record, what is your full name?

HALVORSON: My full name, H. H. Halvorson, is Halvor Hull Halvorson.

FUCHS: Hull is your middle name. Is that a family name?

HALVORSON: That's a family name. It's my mother's maiden name.

FUCHS: When and where were you born?

HALVORSON: I was born in Butte City, Montana.

[3]

FUCHS: What year was that?

HALVORSON: 1879, March 9.

FUCHS: When did you come to Kansas City?

HALVORSON: I came to Kansas City in 1904 from Denver.

FUCHS: And what was your first job here?

HALVORSON: I went to work for the Kansas City Power and Light Company. Mr. R. A. Richardson, President, was the man who hired me.

FUCHS: Where were you educated?

HALVORSON: Well, I graduated from Maritime College and then from there I went to General Electric in the laboratory?

FUCHS: Where was the Maritime College?

HALVORSON: It was in Boston, Massachusetts, the Boston Navy Yard.

FUCHS: Did you study engineering there?

[4]

HALVORSON: I learned engineering. Of course, engineering of that day was at a time when we were emerging from using steam engines for everything to the time when motors and electricity were coming along. I went to work for two years at the General Electric Company. You had to have some preliminary education to go there. My brother became associated with the General Electric Company through me; I had charge of the arc light testing, street lighting.

FUCHS: I see. Where were you in General Electric?

HALVORSON: In W. Lynn, Massachusetts.

FUCHS: Then you came back to Kansas City and went to work for the Power and Light?

HALVORSON: No. I went from there to Denver, and I worked for Mr. Henry L. Daugherty who then was receiver for the Denver Gas and Electric Company.

FUCHS: What year was that?

HALVORSON: That was about 1902. I came here in 1904.

[5]

FUCHS: What did you do for the Power and Light Company in Kansas City?

HALVORSON: Well, I became a contract agent for it and power solicitor and a general man in the commercial department.

FUCHS: How long were you with them?

HALVORSON: Well, I was, off and on, with them for a good many years. They changed management, and so forth, and once or twice I left for a time and then went back again. Now I managed a chandelier sales office, took care of a sign business and things like that.

FUCHS: What sign business?

HALVORSON: Federal Electric Signs.

FUCHS: When you left Power and Light you went into your own business?

HALVORSON: Well, I did a lot of work for the Power and Light Company in shutting down power plants

[6]

and putting in the steam heating system, the underground system. When I did that, why, eventually I got into the real estate business, because I could make a good deal more money out of the real estate business than I could as an employee of a utility.

FUCHS: I see. Well, then, about what year would you say you started to deal in real estate, which was mainly industrial real estate?

HALVORSON: Oh, some fifty years ago. I forget exactly the date.

FUCHS: You mean, around 1917?

HALVORSON: Somewhere along there, yes.

FUCHS: This James H. Clinton, another director?

HALVORSON: As I remember, he had a drugstore on the corner there, right across from the courthouse.

FUCHS: Yes. Mr. Truman worked for him at one time.

HALVORSON: I wouldn't be surprised. And Mr. Garman,

[7]

I understood he was a plumber; and Mr. Barr was a county judge. And Mr. Homer Rogers was at Sheffield Steel Corporation. And of course, Lou Holland is well known; and this man here [Murray] Colgan, was Truman's cousin. I think his mother was mentioned as a younger sister of Mr. Truman's mother.

FUCHS: I see. Were the directors paid anything for their services?

HALVORSON: Oh, no, I don't know that even their meetings would be called very important. After all, Mr. Truman was, you might say the boss, subject to, not to me, but more to Salisbury and Metzger. Adamson I just forgot. I think he was a salesman for someone.

FUCHS: Were you well acquainted with Mr. Truman's cousin:

HALVORSON: I never even met him, but he was Mr. Truman's cousin. Metzger, I don't remember what he did, but I knew Metzger. He had two aunts he lived with

[8]

out there on the square right next to the Bundschu Store, and I made a lease with Kroger Foods.

FUCHS: There is a letter in the file mentioning a Kresge lease about which you went to Chicago to consummate the deal.

HALVORSON: I leased a building right next to Bundschu on the north side. I think it was Kroger. Kresge, I never had any dealings with. Kresge's is the ten-cent store, you know. It was a Kroger store.

FUCHS: You don't recall dealing for a Kresge lease in Chicago?

HALVORSON: No, that wouldn't be my deal at all. Then, of course, there was Salisbury, and Miss Henthorn.

FUCHS: It was Henthorn at that time, later Kiekert.

HALVORSON: That's her name now.

FUCHS: Yes. This Robert F. Crawford, just who was he?

HALVORSON: Mr. Crawford was manager there for a large

[9]

implement house on Union Avenue between Liberty and Hickory Streets. And when they sold that business, he was such a fine, popular man that I just went to him and suggested that since he was too young a man (perhaps 60) to return, why didn't he go to work for that Building and Loan Association and build it up out of the Central Industrial District, because he knew everybody and was very well-liked. He was a high-class man, too high-class a man, really, to have settled on such a small thing, but he was more or less retired. And he had a son-in-law there named Logan, who was a coffee broker, and so he went and got him in the building. You will find in my letter to Crawford that Crawford was really the business manager of the office in the Central Industrial District.

FUCHS: But there seemed to be some sort of a feeling between you and Crawford about the office and the whole operation there. One of your letters indicates that there was some ill feeling between you and Crawford?

[10]

HALVORSON: No, there was no ill feeling between me and Crawford, Crawford said a little bit about heat once in a while or some repairs or something like that, but Mr. Crawford and I never had any ill feelings at all, no.

FUCHS: I see.

HALVORSON: It may have looked that way in his letters. He wrote me letters that were kind of sarcastic and so forth, but he had been used to being quite an executive in his own stead. I think Crawford would like to have been in with us on the Savings and Loan Association. That Savings and Loan Association had a great potential out of that big area down there, which had about 20,000 daytime population.

FUCHS: What about Arthur Metzger? What type of an individual was he?

HALVORSON: He was a financial promoter. He promoted the Scottish Rite Temple at Linwood and Paseo, and the Ararat Shrine building at 11th and Central

[11]

Streets.

FUCHS: Was he capable?

HALVORSON: He was considered in Masonry quite capable, yes. He has a son named Jerome Metzger who is with Block [Metzger] and Company, and is president of the real estate board this year.

FUCHS: What did you think of him as a secretary for a savings and loan association?

HAVLORSON: Well, I would say that Salisbury seemed to keep that pretty well in hand. I don't remember that I had very much contact with Mr. Metzger. I had one real estate deal through his family connections. I lived right in this house at 630 W. 62nd Street, and it was a long ways for me to go out to Independence, you know. I didn't get out there too often.

FUCHS: What is that document you have there?

HALVORSON: Oh, that was something that came here the other day from North American Savings and Loan

[12]

Association. It was mentioned that Jimmy Pendergast started his association at the same time.

His North American name came from some other association, by changing the name, and he apparently was out of it about 1928. He didn't stay in it very long. I went there and asked them the other day about it and they didn't seem to know anything about it down there at the Association. The only thing they knew was that it started off in 1935, but before that they didn't have much record of it.

FUCHS: Well, what would you say about the statement that Salisbury made that Mr. Truman in 1932 wanted to turn things over to Jimmy Pendergast, who was president of the North American Savings and Loan Association of Missouri from 1928 to '38? And that's when Salisbury claims that he got Truman out of the association because Truman wanted to do this.

HALVORSON: Well, I would say that that was just a figment of his imagination because it don't prove up

[13]

that way; and the association was managed by a man named -- who first took it over and did something with it -- was, let's see, Frank M. Newchester. [Frank M. Muehlschuster]*

FUCHS: Newchester?

HALVORSON: Something like that, yes, and his son is still there.

FUCHS: You said that you thought Jimmy Pendergast was out of it by 1928?

HALVORSON: Well, I asked them in the office and they said, "There's no one living that knows anything about it. We've heard that Mr. Pendergast was the first president of it." But this clerk said, "I've been in here seventeen years and I've never had anybody mention his name except hearsay. But there was a man named Pete Kelley, that I heard was president of it at one time. And he was a kind of a political lieutenant of Jimmy Pendergast."

*See H. H. Halvorson Papers, North American Savings Association, Financial Statement, December 1, 1966, Truman Library.

[14]

I think James Pendergast, son of Mike, had too much business and was making too much money to be bothered with building up a savings and loan account of that size.

FUCHS: When did you meet Mr. Truman?

HALVORSON: Well, that's difficult to say. I knew him, you might say, as a taxpayer, when he was on the county court the first time.

FUCHS: Of course, that would have been 1923.

HALVORSON: And he was selling those memberships to the automobile club.

FUCHS: Did you actually come in touch with him at that time?

HALVORSON: I don't remember that I did. Then when he went back again as presiding judge it seems that he took interest enough in me to become interested in me and before I really tried to make any acquaintance with him at all. And I understood it, he knew that I was a friend of Mr. T. J. Pendergast

[15]

and I had pretty good standing in those days as a realtor.

FUCHS: You were quite close to Mr. Pendergast?

HALVORSON: Yes, I was very close to him. I think the first time I remember he was looking for a loan on his hotel known as the Monroe Hotel down at 19th and Main. And he called me in there and wanted to know if I would get him a loan. He said, "There's an undercurrent going around here with these loan men that they're not going to renew my loan, and I haven't got the money to do it." He said, "You go out and get me a loan."

FUCHS: Where were you working at that time?

HALVORSON: I was working in the real estate business.

FUCHS: Why would he call you if he hadn't known you before?

HALVORSON: Well, because he had known me this way. The First Ward councilman, Central Industrial District, John T. O'Neill, officed with me; and John T. O'Neill

[16]

was a very smart man and really quite a leader in the savings and loan association business. I don't mean in savings so much as in appraising and buying and selling real estate. And I had done John quite a few favors in the past and he took a liking to me; and one time when he needed an office he came up and wanted to know if I'd let him office with me. He was a real estate man, but he didn't have very much to do. Mr. O'Neill would just come in the office occasionally.

FUCHS: And he was acquainted with Mr. Pendergast?

HALVORSON: He was First Ward Alderman.

FUCHS: Well, then, I wonder why, if O'Neill was in the real estate business, Pendergast didn't ask him to get the loan.

HALVORSON: I don't know. He asked me to get the loan and I finally found somebody who would make the loan for Mr. T. J. Pendergast. He got to thinking of me from time to time and I thought of him from time to time, if I wanted a little help.

[17]

FUCHS: You helped each other, in other words.

HALVORSON: Helped each other, yes.

FUCHS: Did he do some specific favors for you in any way, that you'd like to mention?

HALVORSON: Oh, yes, one time I got interested in trying to locate a railroad mail post office, is what they called it. And so I went to him and asked him if he couldn't give me a letter, I think it was to Senator [James A.] Reed. I went down to Washington; I wanted to meet the Senator and I did. And he said, "Halvorson, I like you and any time I can help you, if you don't do any-thing to embarrass me, you can have anything you ask for, politically, provided, of course, that something doesn't oppose you, or something like that, where I couldn't keep my promise; but if I can help you, I give you liberty to use my name." That was about the extent of my acquaintance with Mr. J. T. Pendergast.

FUCHS: Did you get that railway post office?

[18]

HALVORSON: No. I didn't. They were going to build it down at the depot. As it is they located across from the depot, the main post office.

FUCHS: What was your interest in it, in what way?

HALVORSON: Well, I had options on land that would have made it possible to span the railroad tracks so that when the mail comes in it would drop right down into the cars. As it is, it's an expensive proposition to have the post office where it is today because they have to use conveyors underneath Pershing Road in there.

FUCHS: Your interest at that time was buying the land and selling it for the post office.

HALVORSON: Yes. I was interested in similar sites, and so forth.

FUCHS: Then Mr. Truman became acquainted with Mr. Pendergast. Do you know whether Salisbury's assertion that he introduced Mr. Truman to Pendergast could be correct?

[19]

HALVORSON: My opinion is that he didn't. Now, I base it on this. Mr. Pendergast asked me one time if I could get a site of land out here at Waldo. I said, "What do you want it for?"

He said, "Well, I have a young friend who is trying to promote an inter-urban between Waldo or the end of the street car line to go out to Grandview." Of course, I don't think he mentioned Truman's name, but he said, "If you could get him a loan [he had a certain property he wanted to buy there], I wish you'd interest yourself in it.

He said, "He's a fine young man and he's a friend of mine."

That's all he said.

FUCHS: Do you have any idea what year that would have been? Would it have been before he was judge the first time, which was in '23?

HALVORSON: I would say it was, but I forget. All these things happened back in the twenties and it's pretty difficult to remember.

[20]

FUCHS: I understand that. We just try to date things as best we can, you know, by relating them to something else.

HALVORSON: My position with Mr. Pendergast -- I was no weight politically, but I did have good clients, like the Power and Light Company, and I made appraisals for the Missouri Public Service Commission. He knew that I was doing a good service and he knew that I was responsible and so we became friends, you might say.

FUCHS: It's been said that Mr. Truman had a staff of salesmen working for him when he sold auto club memberships. Would you know if that's true and if so would you remember who any of the men might have been?

HALVORSON: He had an office with Ted Marks, who was a merchant tailor, in the Dwight Building.

FUCHS: That wasn't the Board of Trade Building?

HALVORSON: The Board of Trade Building, yes.

[21]

FUCHS: He was in the Board of Trade Building?

HALVORSON: It was all the same building.

FUCHS: It was?

HALVORSON: All owned by the same people.

FUCHS: I didn't know that.

HALVORSON: So. I went over to see him and when he came in my office he used my office much the same as he used Ted Marks' place of business.

FUCHS: Where was your office at that time?

HALVORSON: My office was in the Waldheim Building, 1520 Waldheim Building.

FUCHS: You mean he used your office when he was selling memberships in the auto club?

HALVORSON: No, only after he became with the Savings and Loan. You see, they opened up the Independence office and it wasn't really practical for him to go to the West Bottoms, Central Industrial District, and I would say this, that he probably went down

[22]

there only a few times and it was so much handier for him to drop into my office out there at 11th and Main. Now, I was coming out on the bus recently and a lady came and sat beside me and I said to her, I said, "Miss Edgar?" I hadn't seen her for years and years. And I said to her, "When were you working for me? Didn't you work for me when Mr. Truman used to come in the office?"

And she said, "I went to work for you in 1927 and worked there seven years."

I said, "What do you remember about Mr. Truman coming in the office?"

She said, "He just used to dart in and out of there and use the phone and maybe make an appointment or something like that. He was just as busy as he could be and he rarely spoke to me. He just came in and went out and he did that for a year or two ." But her name's in the telephone book. And I think that was the truth of the matter. The office was small, nothing big about it, although we did take at one time -- we used to let people come in there and pay their deposit rather

[23]

than mail it out to Independence or down in the Bottoms. I allowed people that I knew, if they wanted to pay postage to drop up there and leave it. And we'd just send it out to the office ourselves. That's the gist of that.

FUCHS: Do you recall anything more, to go back for a minute, about being with Ted Marks in the Board of Trade Building, and who else might have been working with him?

HALVORSON: Ted Marks was a merchant tailor and I think he was a captain in the regiment.

FUCHS: Yes, he was.

HALVORSON: And I think he was best man when Truman was married.

FUCHS: That's right.

HALVORSON....but I never knew Ted Marks. I don't remember even meeting him when I went in the office. He had tailors in there. It wasn't a big shop or anything like that. He was a good tailor

[24]

and well known and had a following from people he knew, but it was a very logical place for Mr. Truman's headquarters. You might say that my place was more of a headquarters than anything else. They couldn't get to Independence and they couldn't get down in the Bottoms, so I had a vacant office there and I just let him use it.

FUCHS: Well, now, Daniels implies that Truman started the Savings and Loan Association while he was in the Board of Trade Building and worked out of there.

HALVORSON: Well, he couldn't have been because it wasn't formed at that time and he got his charter out of the bank. So there was nothing for him to d o in Ted Marks' office except make his headquarters.

FUCHS: How did you come into the Community Savings and Loan Association?

HALVORSON: Well, I had bought the 1300 Union Avenue building down on Union Avenue and Mulberry and I desired one myself. And I saw the potential, as

[25]

you can see I think I have a picture here of that district.

FUCHS: Yes, you showed me that.

HALVORSON: Well, I have a bigger one than that, I think, too. Anyway, I got so interested in this Savings and Loan business that I thought that I could get into it myself; and I heard about him and I looked him up and I found that he had a charter and it was already formed, and so I just went out and kind of declared myself in with them.

FUCHS: Well, now, Daniels said that the association was organized on October 13, 1924.

HALVORSON: Well, that was it?

FUCHS: Were you with him that early then, as early as 1924?

HALVORSON: I was with him right from the start.

FUCHS: How did you hear about Truman and the association?

[26]

HALVORSON: Oh, let's see. We had already got kind of temporarily underway, starting it from tow; and I believe I told you that Mr. Pendergast called me down there one day and said that he heard that Truman and I were going into the savings and loan association together. And he said, "Well, my nephew Jimmy is going into the savings and loan association and I wish Truman and he would get together and put it together." He said, "Of course, Mr. Truman thinks he ought to go on his own and that's all right with me, but I don't want you boys to solicit savings of our boys in the court house and city hall because Jimmy's my nephew and he'll probably want some of that himself."

"Well," I said to Mr. Pendergast, I own this building down here on Union Avenue and Mulberry Street."

"My" he said, "Just the ideal place. Go to it. I'm for you." That's all there was to it.

FUCHS: But you told him you wouldn't be soliciting

[27]

from....

HALVORSON: No, we never did. We didn't have to. We had a good fertile field down there. We had the Livestock Exchange and everything down there.

FUCHS: The statement that Daniels makes is that, "The facts seem to be that Truman sold the stock and organized the association from the same Board of Trade Building offices in Kansas City from which he sold the auto club memberships and then moved his offices to Independence."

HALVORSON: Well, Ted Marks' was his headquarters, and that's where I met him. I would say that what he did do preliminary in moving from one operation, using Ted Marks' office, he went to the other until he made a deal with me in my office and became more in line with his business.

FUCHS: But a document which you have given me here, shows that the Community Savings and Loan Association was primarily created simply as a change of name of a South Central Savings and Loan.

[28]

HALVORSON: That's right, you've got it right there. Salisbury paid $700 for it.

FUCHS: So, it would have been difficult for Mr. Truman to have organized it from scratch if it was just a name change.

HALVORSON: He and Lou Holland and those fellows bought that business, that bank, didn't they?

FUCHS: Yes, but that was in 1926.

HALVORSON: Well, they may not have bought the bank in 1926 but they were buying up their own paper when they bought that bank.

FUCHS: How would you explain that?

HALVORSON: Well, how I'd explain that was, the attorney for that was Mr. Ernest D. Martin, whose letter I got gave Mr. Truman and he wanted to sell me some of Mr. Truman's notes at one time.

FUCHS: Oh, is that true. Now, these notes were approximately -- what date would they have been?

[29]

HALVORSON: Oh, I wasn't interested at all and when I say Truman's note I say that group -- it seems a group was in that bank and it wasn't Mr. Truman, particularly. I don't think Truman had any great deal of money in that bank.

FUCHS: Well, when they started to use your building, were they already using the building at 204 North Liberty in Independence?

HALVORSON: Oh, no, they didn't go in there until after he became chairman of the county court.

FUCHS: Presiding judge, I see.

HALVORSON: Then it became necessary for him to have an office out in Independence because the court house was there. The other court was downtown in Kansas City, Missouri, and he had to expedite things and, as you know, he spent time in both court houses.

FUCHS: Well, I think I saw a letter in the file which implied that there was some feeling because he had put the main office in Independence.

[30]

HALVORSON: Well, it gives him a little more dignity to have started it out there than it does down in the Central Industrial District, but as I told you, those are details -- who cares? If it pleases him to put it that way, it doesn't displease me in any way, shape or form.

FUCHS: Then you didn't really feel that the main office should have been in the Central Industrial District?

HALVORSON: No, not after I saw the political drift, that he was really going to go right along in politics, and in fact it was Salisbury's intention and mine, too, to help get him back into politics. He was very much on his own there for a period. He didn't have any job, or any income particularly, and we started in to let him have the first savings and the commissions and so forth. We were interested in getting him going.

FUCHS: Well, now, there was a limited partnership agreement of April 21, 1926. What arrangement was there

[31]

in documents prior to that time?

HALVORSON: Well, you've got it all in the files there.

FUCHS: That's the earliest one that I could find, though. What I'm asking is, what was the arrangement from, say, '24 to 1926, which is the year of the partnership agreement?

HALVORSON: Oh, I don't remember. The whole thing was so flimsy; we were so small and starting from tow. We were just in our infancy getting started.

FUCHS: Well, then, in 1927 there was a limited partnership agreement and contract to take over the contract between the Community Savings and Loan Association of Englewood, Missouri and Mr. Truman it said was "experienced in the sales of savings and loan stocks and has a force of salesmen available." And so he was to be made salesman and general manager, and he was sharing primarily in the commissions. Now what was his experience and who would the force of salesmen have been?

[32]

HALVORSON: My experience in the whole thing was, I made a pretty good living out of it and we were not living to the true spirit of a building up of a savings and loan association in the Bottoms, which I was very much interested in; but I took it gracefully and just kept my position with them, but I didn't do very much work in the whole thing at all. At the minute I thought Salisbury was very capable and he was, and Mr. Truman had the friends and our man, Crawford, was doing the work and Truman, after the first year and a half had already -- and he was presiding judge of the county court -- he didn't have very much time to devote to it either -- county matters and roads, and putting people to work and so forth was an important factor.

FUCHS: The documents show that there was a company called The Community Investment Company. I wonder if you'd outline what you remember of that and that company's function?

HALVORSON: There was another company?

[33]

FUCHS: Rural Investment Company, and the records you gave me show that the Community Investment Company was later called the Rural Investment Company.

HALVORSON: That's true. I don't know why they picked that, but they did.

FUCHS: They dealt with insurance and sale of stocks. What was their function primarily?

HALVORSON: I think that was one thing. They took the insurance end of it but I think Judge Barr or someone like that was interested in the insurance. I don't know. I never got anything out of it and I don't think many of the boys did particularly. Every savings and loan association generally does business with some insurance company. I don't think that any of them have their own insurance, you know. They have to do business and get commercial insurance. Well, now, for instance, I never did charge up anything against the savings and loan association. I bought a bankrupt bank's fixtures and fixed up a regular bank room in my

[34]

building. I intended to put a savings and loan association down there, a real estate office, and so forth. You might say that the beginning of Kansas City was in this district.

FUCHS: Yes.

HALVORSON: That was the best corner down there in the district, and I had it as a business corner. It was the only corner for a business between there and the stockyards, and I had fixed up what I thought was a pretty good buy.

FUCHS: Well, the records which you gave me the other day seem to show that you never recovered very much. You were out rent, and you were out fixtures, and you never got much for stock. Did the others realize money from this, to any extent, Salisbury, Metzger and Truman?

HALVORSON: I don't know about Metzger, Salisbury, as executive secretary, or vice –president --whatever his position was – Salisbury....

[35]

FUCHS: Manager.

HALVORSON: ....Manager -- Salisbury made it a business. In other words, he looked after the whole thing. It really was the developing of a business to Salisbury and the rest of us were kind of on the fringe.

FUCHS: Was Salisbury's salary the main thing that he got out of it, what he took out as his salary?

HALVORSON: He sued the company. He was drawing a good deal more money out of it than I thought he was, but I didn't say anything about it. I'm very passive, I don't get into quarrels.

FUCHS: What was the main quarrel between Mr. Truman and Mr. Salisbury? It seems that there was some sort of personal feeling?

HALVORSON: Well, it was really, I think that Salisbury was a little jealous of Truman. That was what I kind of thought. Then I thought, too, that they seemed to fuss, which I told you I thought was a

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byplay in the first place.

FUCHS: What did they fuss about?