William J. Randall Oral History Interview, November 14, 1989

Oral History Interview with
William J. Randall

Member, U.S. House of Representatives, Fourth District of Missouri, 1959-77

Independence, Missouri
November 14, 1989
by Niel M. Johnson

See Also Additional William J. Randall Oral History Number 2 by Niel M. Johnson dated December 8, 1989 .

See Also Additional William J. Randall Oral History conducted by the William Jewell College Oral History Project dated March 15, 1976 .

[ Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript| List of Subjects Discussed ]


This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened 2011
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri


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Oral History Interview with
William J. Randall


Independence, Missouri
November 14, 1989
by Niel M. Johnson


JOHNSON: Let's start out with the birthplace and the date of your birth, and your parents' names.

RANDALL: I was born in Independence, Missouri, at 1126 North Spring Street, on July 16, 1909. My father was William R. Randall; my mother was Lillie B. Randall.

JOHNSON: What was your father's occupation?

RANDALL: He was a contractor. Well, to back up, he was a brick manufacturer to start with. He had four or five plants in Kansas and most unfortunately all of them failed because in those days he relied on natural gas, and those were shallow gas wells. If the wells would


run out, he couldn't afford the hauling of coal; so he moved about four or five times, to Iola, Independence, Coffeeville--all in southeast Kansas. Then, he was later a contractor. First, he was a masonry contractor, and finally a general contractor-- Randall Brothers and Hurst.

JOHNSON: So, when you were born the family was living out here?

RANDALL: We lived at 1126 North Spring, for just a short time, and then we moved over on North Union Street, about the seven or eight hundred block north. I lived there until I was about three years old and then moved to 403 West Maple, the corner of Maple and Spring. I was three years old when we went there, and we lived there until about 1933. Then I moved to 201 South Pleasant where I now live. I lived there until I was married, and then after I was married and until I went into the war we had several residences.

JOHNSON: Did you get your education here in Independence?

RANDALL: I went to the public schools of Independence, Missouri, through high school. Then I went to the good old Junior College of Kansas City, which was probably the toughest school in America. Out of 1,500 that


would enter every fall, 125 would graduate two years later. I was very proud to be among those 125. I went to the University of Missouri; that would have been in about '29. I was sitting in a class of James Harvey Rogers the day of the crash. He later was President Roosevelt's financial adviser. He lost $22,000 in the cotton futures, and adjourned the class immediately. I stayed ahead there, and worked off of three undergraduate degrees. I worked off an AB in Arts and Science, a BS in business administration, and a BS in education. I combined the three of them. I had to go back one additional year to get the BS in education. I graduated from the University in 1931, and was in the graduate school in '32 and '33. I wrote a thesis for the master’s degree, but did not take the oral examination. I had to pull out before that. As I said, I had a BS in education and a BS in business administration, and was short of masters by just the oral exam.

JOHNSON: A masters in education?

RANDALL: A masters in economics and finance.

JOHNSON: You went to the same high school as Harry Truman went to up here, is that right? Before it burned.


RANDALL: Well, yes, right here at the old high school; right up here, that's correct. I don't know if he went to Ott School or not, but I went to Ott School.

JOHNSON: Well, I think he attended Ott elementary school, but of course he went to the one high school in Independence.

RANDALL: Right here at Maple and Pleasant Street.

JOHNSON: Where Palmer Junior High is?

RANDALL: It's called Palmer now. It was the old Independence High School before there was ever Chrisman.

JOHNSON: I don't suppose you had any of the same teachers did you in high school?

RANDALL: Oh, my goodness, no. I'm just a child compared to Harry Truman.

JOHNSON: Then, in '33 you're short of masters but you quit school to go to work then?

RANDALL: I had to. I had to. The dark days of the Depression were coming on. I had enrolled but I didn't go any further. I didn't go any further, because I had to come back to Kansas City. If you will recall the


bank holiday of 1933, they didn't even run the street cars back and forth. I actually walked from Independence to Kansas City because everything was closed. Roosevelt didn't go in until March of '33, but anyhow I came home in January. I tried to get a job teaching school because of my teaching degree, but I couldn't get it. So then I decided to become a lawyer. Well, actually just in January when I came back I entered law school. I was telling about the cars on the bank holiday; I had to walk back and forth.

JOHNSON: So when you found there wasn't a teaching job available, you entered law school. Where?

RANDALL: Well, it was the good old Kansas City School of Law. It was at 918 Baltimore, on the east side of Baltimore Street between 9th and l0th.

JOHNSON: Another Truman alma mater.

RANDALL: That's correct. It later became a part of the University of Kansas City, Missouri, as the School of Law. But believe me, in my judgment, I say without any reservation, that the lawyers that came out of that school were better prepared than any lawyer today, because they had the men who came right out of the


courtroom. They had been in court all day themselves, the teachers. They gave you the nuts and bolts. You might have acquired a lot of legal theories, and a lot of legal, what should I say, philosophy in some of the law schools today, but you don't have the nuts and bolts to go into court. We knew the procedure, we knew the things to do next. We knew the rules of evidence; we knew the rules of pleading; we knew the whole works when we came out of there. In fact, I won a case in October, a trial in which the court sits as a jury. I didn't get the word of passing the bar until September. I handled it myself and won it because of that training.

JOHNSON: Well, what would you consider to be the most important influence on, let's say, your political and personal values at this time?

RANDALL: The word "influence" there, I guess, would mean what caused me to do . . .

JOHNSON: Who and what?

RANDALL: I never really intended to hold public office. I guess you could say the background came about by the fact that some of my so-called ancestors, or predecessors, had been in public office. My grandfather, and I say without any apology or any


humility, was one of the leaders of this town; he was William M. Randall. He had a brick plant of his own. He could have been mayor many different times and declined it. He was a city alderman. I had an uncle, Uncle Joe Randall, who was a city alderman. All of my family have been interested in the governmental sector, the public life, but I never really had any ambition except--maybe it was my dear mother, bless her heart. We had a relative, Samuel J. Randall, of Pennsylvania who at one time was Speaker of the House. And she [mother] said, "Oh William, I know you'll never be Speaker, but I hope I'll live to see you go to Congress." Well, she did. She did.

JOHNSON: So she had an interest in national politics, not just local.

RANDALL: Well, because of this alleged relative--I'm not sure he was ever any real relation--but she thought he was.

JOHNSON: Well, what about the Depression and the New Deal? Did they draw your attention to national issues?

RANDALL: Frankly, I was not desperate, but so hard up that I was just trying to get ahead and get a profession. It's a long story why I lost out becoming a teacher.


There was a split vote in those days with three Democrats and three Republicans [on the local school board]. I think I should back up and say that I actually held a fellowship at the University of Missouri. I actually taught freshman and sophomores at the University when I was working on my masters. Of course, I started out as a grader and all that kind of stuff, but later actually I held classes for freshmen and sophomores, and one of my competitors at that time was the late Bill Gilmore. He quit about the same time and became a competitor again for the one job that was open. He got the job, and I didn't.

JOHNSON: What kind of a job was that?

RANDALL: Teaching some kind of social sciences, or something like that.

JOHNSON: At what level, high school?

RANDALL: High school level.

JOHNSON: And that was a political . . .

RANDALL: Well, it was political in the sense that there were three Democrats and three Republicans. Actually, the defector, the lady who was a defector, was a Mrs. Dickinson for whom Dickinson Road was named down here.


If I ever get a chance, I think one of the reasons I consented to come out here was the fact that maybe it will kind of spur me along to get a few thoughts jotted down when I read this tape. I'm really going to write some memoirs one of these days. I was asked to send a note to this dear lady, by the powers that be, a judge of the County Court in those days. I won't mention any names because we're in the Truman Library. He said, "I want you to take a note to Mrs. Dickinson." I didn't know what the note said. But the note said, "Mrs. Dickinson, you're serving your last term. The way you've treated my friend Bill Randall, you're serving your last term." It was her last term. My aunt succeeded her and stayed there for 18 years. It's a very interesting story.

JOHNSON: Well, now, this county judge you're talking about, is that Harry S. Truman?

RANDALL: I'm not going to speculate on that? Go ahead. It was a man sitting very close to Mr. Truman, I'll say that; at his right.

JOHNSON: In regard to the New Deal and Roosevelt, you weren't too concerned with them at this time?

RANDALL: Well, I think there's a metamorphosis, if you want


to call it that. I guess you could say that maybe on the local level I was inclined to be sort of a liberal. The years when I was in Congress, I was not only a conservative, but a strong conservative. I watched over the Treasury in two different Congresses. You don't earn that without being a strong, strong, strong fiscal conservative. I like to think that I was a liberal so far as human rights were concerned, and so far as certain welfare issues. But I realized, and as more people are realizing today, we wouldn't be in the fix we are in, and we wouldn't be almost going over the cliff on the national debt and the budget.

JOHNSON: You were in World War II in the South Pacific. Was there anything there that might have influenced your political outlook?

RANDALL: Well, not so much. I was a lawyer when I went in, of course; I had been a member of the Bar since '36. I went into the war in '43. I passed up several opportunities to accept a commission. In fact, at one time Mr. Truman was going to almost see that I received a commission. I'd have to go to Omaha and become a Judge Advocate General. I guess I had late lunch with him, or early dinner, in the old coffee shop at the Muehlebach Hotel. He approved it. He was a Senator at


the time. I was to go ahead and go to Omaha. Hillary Bush went and wound up, I guess, as a lieutenant colonel. I didn't go because I was about to have my only child. That would have been in January. I sweated it out until the first of March, and then went into the service on the first of March. I went all through it. The disappointment of World War II was that I never became an officer. I had five stripes when I left, the next to the highest in enlisted rank. I have since become an officer in the National Guard. I'm now a retired first lieutenant. I passed five officers candidate boards at different levels: Camp Campbell, Kentucky; Fort Ord, California; Hawaii, New Caledonia, New Hebrides, I guess, and the Philippines. All right, I was finally accepted. I was all ready to go, under the Judge Advocate General. I was going to Ann Arbor, Michigan, ___?____. I was, I guess, in a non-com meeting; it could have been in Caledonia. It was the day that we received word that Mr. Truman would be the President of the United States. The word was received from Warm Springs that Mr. Roosevelt had died. I think I was making another application. It comes back to me now. I was making another application.


JOHNSON: You've mentioned Mr. Truman. When did you actually first meet Senator or Judge Truman?

RANDALL: Oh, my goodness; I guess he was a judge. My first vote was in 1932, as far as the vote is concerned. Actually, as far as becoming a sort of a habitue, if you want to call it that, around the court house, with my dear friend E.I. [Eugene] "Buck" Purcell, oh, I won't say I knew him in the sense that I'd go up and use the first name. But it goes back to 1922; that's why I jotted this down.

JOHNSON: That first meeting?

RANDALL: I jotted this down, right here, that the first time I had ever seen the man and brushed shoulders with him was in 1922. That goes back a long time. That's his first race for county judge. We'll get around to some things here in a minute which I'm going to try to spell out in a more orderly way, if I can ever get a chance to write.

I'll get around to the '22 thing in a bit. Let's see, we had a thought we were pursuing. Oh, yes, New Caledonia. Let's go back on that.

I was taking another examination--my application was already in--and I was taking another written examination for officer candidate school. There was a


big old master sergeant, I'll never forget, about 6'2", '3 or '4; he came in and said, "We have a new President of the United States." He said, "Mr. Roosevelt has passed away in Warm Springs." I got up, stood up--here were about eight or ten of us sitting around there--and I tore up that paper and threw it in the waste basket. He said, "You've lost your mind." I said, "No, I haven't." I said, "I now personally know the President of the United States, and I'm not worried about anything from now on."

All right. They later called me, about another one of the previous ones that I had passed. One time I had a board in Hawaii; it seemed to me like it was general rank. I passed that. They called me when I was in Leyte, and I was going to have to go to Ann Arbor. That's the only thing I ever asked the man [Senator Truman] when I was in the service. I got in touch with Bill Dryden's wife, I think, Mildred Dryden, whose husband I later employed. I said, "For God's sake, get the word; I want to cut this junk out." That's all I ever heard of it. That was the end of it; I didn't have to go. I finally came on home. That's the only thing I ever asked of Mr. Truman. I guess probably the only favor I ever asked of him in my life. So I got up and tore up the paper and threw it in the


waste basket. He looked at me and said, "Have you lost your mind?" I said, "No, not really."

All right now we're back to '22.

JOHNSON: Since you've mentioned the Truman connection, let's go back with that, and note whatever contact that you might have had from '22 up to '45.

RANDALL: In l922 was Mr. Truman's first effort at office. His first effort as county judge was in 1922. It was a very spirited race; it was the most bitter race he was ever in in his life. There was a fellow by the name of George Parent in Oak Grove, and there was someone from Lee's Summit--it was Todd George I believe. E.E. Montgomery was Truman's principle competitor. I have had a feeling all my life that down deep in Mr. Truman's heart he always had an animosity, a measure of animosity not toward me as William J. Randall, but toward the name Randall, because all of the Randalls were for E.E. Montgomery. He came just that near to being beat. I forget what he won by, just a handful of votes.

JOHNSON: Well, were your Randalls Republicans?

RANDALL: No, no, this was in the primary. The nomination is tantamount to election.


JOHNSON: They never were Republicans?

RANDALL: None of my people have ever been. But the Randalls were so prominent in that race and worked so hard for Mr. Montgomery. One time they had those caravans. I was just a small boy, let's say nine, ten or twelve years old. But I can remember it. I can remember that caravan, because I went with my folks. They came to a cross roads and they actually fought to see which car would go first, which car. But our name was synonymous with E.E. Montgomery. We were always Montgomery people. He was a Blue Springs banker, and he darn near beat Mr. Truman. I've had a feeling all my life that he harbored a grudge--not so much against William J. Randall--as against the name Randall, because they were quite prominent in his near defeat.

JOHNSON: Well, did they support him after that?

RANDALL: Well, of course. Of course, they did. We'll come to it later on. My dear mother was a close and intimate friend of Bess Truman. In fact, she worked with her in the so-called milk distribution, and bread distribution, up at the Memorial Building all during the Depression. In fact, I ran across some letters from her the other day, from Bess Truman, endearing letters to my mother. I was up in the attic. I am


trying to clear out some things, endearing letters from Bess Truman to my mother.

JOHNSON: That would be good to have. Can we make copies of those?

RANDALL: Well, I'll see if I can lay my hands on them readily.

JOHNSON: You say that Bess Truman and your mother were involved in some distribution of goods?

RANDALL: Milk and bread distribution. They distributed to the poor, poor, poor people during the Depression, right up here at the Memorial Building.

JOHNSON: So they came to the Memorial Building to get these commodities?

RANDALL: That's right, in the basement down there. My mother worked there for two or three years with her.

JOHNSON: I don't think I've heard that before about Bess.

RANDALL: She worked very hard at it.

JOHNSON: For two or three years there you say.

RANDALL: The '22 election--that's really the only time there was opposition or an altercation that the


Randalls ever had with Mr. Truman; that was in '22. They just kind of went along with him after that. Mr. Montgomery didn't run again.

JOHNSON: Was there anyone in your family, say, your father or uncle, who held any local office?

RANDALL: Yes, I mentioned the alderman. They both had been aldermen; they called them aldermen in those days, in the City of Independence. Both my uncle and my grandfather were aldermen.

JOHNSON: Are you talking about the '20s?

RANDALL: Oh, my goodness, no, way, way back, before I was born.

JOHNSON: In the '20s and '30s, there were no Randalls here in local politics?


JOHNSON: Of course, in '24 he loses the race and then works for the Kansas City Auto Club. Were you acquainted with [Spencer] Salisbury and the Community Savings and Loan?

RANDALL: Oh, my yes. Old "Snake Eyes," we called him. His daughter is George Hare's widow down here on North


Delaware. We called him Snake Eyes.

JOHNSON: He was a captain, I think, in World War I.

RANDALL: Well, yes, I think he held the rank of captain.

JOHNSON: What was your impression of Salisbury?

RANDALL: Well, Salisbury was unorthodox, unconventional, sort of a renegade, sort of an outlaw, who delighted to have that role. I don't know what your records show, but I have a strong feeling he was never a great cheerleader for Mr. Truman.

JOHNSON: They were on the "outs" with each other.

I notice that you also were a member of many, many organizations; the Methodist Church, the Masons, the VFW, the American Legion, Independence Optimist Club . . .

RANDALL: You've been reading the Congressional Directory; that's just a part of them. Since that Congressional Directory was published I've probably belonged to more. I figured up one time that I paid between $ll00 and $1200 a year in dues.

JOHNSON: Well, of course, those memberships would come after you . . .


RANDALL: Oh, all along the way. I guess one time I was one of the few persons that was a life member of the Optimist Club, but was also an honorary member of the Rotary, honorary member of the Kiwanis--still an honorary member of the Kiwanis in Fairmount--honorary member of the Lions at Butler, honorary member of the Rotary at Independence. I belonged to all of the service organizations you could think of, but I'm a life member of the Optimist Club.

JOHNSON: When and how did you become involved in your first political campaign?

RANDALL: I came out of the war totally without any funding. I think I'd saved maybe $700 or $800. I just had to have some sort of a job. My dear friend, Alvin Hatten, who is 93 years old now, whom I visited in his home last night--by the way, he's held public office longer than any other person in this county, on the county level, except Rudy Roper. Rudy Roper down here was the mayor for 25 years. Alvin Hatten held five four-year terms as county collector--twenty years--which is quite a record. I went to see my dear friend Alvin, whom I had served in a vote contest--spent several months of my life in a contest in '42, and went into the Army in '43. He was grateful to me. In fact, I was appointed


as delinquent tax attorney, as an honor. Went in March 3, into the Army. He appointed me March the 1st, knowing I couldn't serve, just in an honorary capacity. I went to Alvin. I said, "Alvin, I've just got to have something to do." I came home just two nights before Christmas; it was the 23rd of December 1945. Alvin said, "You're going to work right after the first of January." I said, "My goodness, I'm grateful, because I just have to have something to support my wife and daughter."

Well, I did go to work as delinquent tax attorney, not the old job because in the interim the law had abolished the office; it was a part of what was called land trust. I held that job in '46. I think we ought to back up and say that I like to believe, and I say so without any worry of any contradiction, and with a measure of humility, that I was one of Roger T. Sermon's really sort of "first lieutenants" in the sense that I was very close to him. I guess there was a hand-full of about five, even when he was Mayor for those many years. As I was growing up over the years, I was always a part of his office, so to speak. I would see him every morning at l0 o'clock in a little coffee club up at the Woolworth Building.

I went to talk to Rog. I said, "Rog, I'm very


grateful for what Alvin Hatten's done, but I kind of have a feeling that there's somebody occupying my place." I won't mention the name; I was referring to a young lawyer who had sort of moved in. He said, "Bill, you've got to remember that fellow didn't go to war, and you did. He's just the benchwarmer. He's not even a substitute; that's your place, that's your chair." And I said, "There's going to be four offices open. The election, the primary, is this year. There's going to be a magistrate"--they don't call it justice of the peace any more, they call it magistrate--"and it pays fairly well. There's going to be a state representative. There will be election for magistrate, state representative, state senator and Judge of the County Court of the Eastern District." "Well," I said, "Rog, there's an easy answer there. I'm not worried about any honors; I'm not worried about any stepping stones. I just want to know which one pays the most." "Well," he said, "Judge of the County Court--that pays $10,000-$12,000." I said, "Well, I'd sure like to take a shot at that." He said, "You will be the next Eastern Judge." I said, "That's a pretty strong order. There's an incumbent in there." He said, "Don't worry about that; you are the next eastern judge."

Well, I worked hard. I guess you could say I was


sort of a war hero. I earned all of the battle stars, and I think the bronze star. The papers were very kind. They said, "Sergeant Randall for Eastern Judge. A war hero returns, deserves to be elected." The papers were very kind to me. It was lopsided. The primary was two or three or four to one. There was a very fine, dear old gentleman there as an incumbent, Walter Yost. He hadn't done anything wrong. It was sort of stepping over someone. He was a fine gentleman; it was sort of stepping on someone. I felt about that in the past. But I was so desperately in need of some compensation, that I pretty near had to do it.

JOHNSON: Was your family friends of the Sermon family, in the years previous?

RANDALL: Oh, close, very close. Rog Sermon had two sisters; one was Mrs. Bradley, W.J. Bradley, and the other was Mrs. Schulenberg. They were together almost constantly. They were close, close--in the Mary Paxton Study Class, the Browning Society, the Saturday Club, and all of them. They were very close.

JOHNSON: Had you involved yourself in politics at all before '46?


RANDALL: Oh, yes, my goodness, yes. Goodness knows, I was secretary of the Young Democratic Club all during the '30s, and I was the president of the Young Democratic Club, local club. I was actually secretary of the statewide Young Democratic Club, and I ran for State president one time, and was defeated. Oh, my goodness, yes, I'd been active for years. That wasn't my first time in Democratic politics.

JOHNSON: Were you acquainted with the Pendergasts, with Jim Pendergast, for instance?

RANDALL: And Tom Pendergast. Well, Jim was a dear friend; that came along later. I had never met Mr. [Tom] Pendergast, and I forget what the occasion was. Well, it was sometime in the late '30s; it would have to be about the time I passed the bar in '36, I guess. I said to myself, "Wait a minute, you have never personally met Tom 'T.J.' Pendergast." So I said to my dear friend E.J. Purcell, "Buck," I called him Buck because we were close, "when you go down to 1908 Main, I would like to go down with you." "Bill, we're going down." It was about three or four days before Christmas. I went in and met that man and contrary to the views of some, I think he was a great man. He had a personality that was magnetic. He had an ability that


was incredible. When he put out that big hand, just like a ham, just as big as a ham, and shook my hand, I can tell you I just felt some magnetism. I said to Buck after we left, "That is my Christmas present. That is my Christmas present."

JOHNSON: So Buck Purcell is the one who sat to the right of Harry Truman.

RANDALL: I think you've cross-examined me. I'm not as sharp as I used to be, but I used to be a pretty good trial lawyer.

JOHNSON: Do you remember when he originated that phrase, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

RANDALL: I not only remember when he originated it, I was the victim of it. That's another long story in which I deeply resented his making a reference. At that time, I was a sitting Congressman.

JOHNSON: When Purcell brought that up?

RANDALL: Oh, no, no. I'm speaking of Mr. Truman's use of it.


RANDALL: Mr. Truman did not originate it. Buck Purcell


originated it and Mr. Truman adopted it. It was nothing original with Mr. Truman; it was Buck Purcell's origination. That's correct.

JOHNSON: He's quoted in the papers as saying that, at the beginning of the 1931 term when they were going to have to cut back on county spending.

RANDALL: Buck was one dickens of a good friend, a great guy. I mean I just loved the man. He was, you might say, my first mentor, or my first sponsor, whatever word you want to use, for years, until Rog Sermon came along.

JOHNSON: You were acquainted with Rufus Burrus, I suppose, in those days too.

RANDALL: I'm not only acquainted with him; I'm a cousin of his.

JOHNSON: Is that right?

RANDALL: I guess third or fourth, somewhere along there.

JOHNSON: Did Mr. Burrus encourage you to get interested in politics?

RANDALL: No, our relationship has been sort of at arms length. Politically, Rufus had an ambition to go to


Congress himself and did run for Congress one time.

JOHNSON: He ran for Congress?

RANDALL: Yes, he ran and got about 4,000 votes.

JOHNSON: In '46 you are elected to the County Court as Eastern Judge, the same spot that Truman had held.

RANDALL: Elected for seven terms. I retired to go to Congress.

JOHNSON: Did you have the same office up here in the Court House that Harry Truman had?

RANDALL: Exactly the same office.

JOHNSON: But not the same furniture, or was it?

RANDALL: No, no, it was modern furniture, but exactly the same corner office.

JOHNSON: Have they restored it pretty much the way it appeared in the early '30s?

RANDALL: I've only been in there once or twice. I think it's a reasonable facsimile, yes. But that was my office.

JOHNSON: You were reelected to six additional two-year terms.


RANDALL: I was elected seven terms. I was starting a term in January, when Mr. Christopher passed away, so I really served until the end of 1960.

JOHNSON: So the three judges that were administering county business did meet up here at the Independence Court House?

RANDALL: Alternately; one month in Kansas City, and one month out here. We didn't meet every week. Sometimes we would be required to meet every two or three weeks, but we would meet alternately. In other words, if we would meet three or four times a month, it would be one month--for instance, May as I remember was always in Independence, and June in Kansas City; April in Kansas City. But it would start out in January up here, and February over there, March out here, April over there, May out here, and so forth.

JOHNSON: So the procedures that you used, were they very similar to the procedures and rules that were used by the Truman court in the early days?

RANDALL: Almost identical.

JOHNSON: They didn't go to a County Legislature until the 1970s, wasn't it?


RANDALL: I think I had a small part in defeating the charter in maybe two or three instances. If I may say so, and I'll be glad to put it on the record, it's the sorriest thing that ever happened to this county. It's much, much more expensive, and not one bit better government.

JOHNSON: The legislature idea?

RANDALL: I suspect the expense is probably double, the administrative expense.

JOHNSON: You mentioned Tom Pendergast, and you felt this magnetism. He had some charisma apparently.

RANDALL: No question about it.

JOHNSON: And then, of course, he got into trouble with the IRS.

RANDALL: Well, his greatest weakness was gambling, the horses.

JOHNSON: Yes. You said you were president of the Young Democrats.

RANDALL: I was a long-time secretary; I was secretary oh, probably six or eight years. I later became president, and then I became state secretary, state-wide, and ran


for president. A fellow from Springfield beat me out, and I became first vice president.

JOHNSON: Jim Pendergast, didn't he take over as . . .

RANDALL: James M. Pendergast, nephew of T.J., a fine gentleman.

JOHNSON: Didn't he become sort of chairman of the county Democrat organization?

RANDALL: Well, there wasn't any official chairman. He took office as the head of the Jackson Democratic Club, at 1908 Main.

JOHNSON: The Jackson Democratic Club--how was that related to the county committee of the Democrats.

RANDALL: It's an unofficial club. There were several clubs. There were three or four clubs, dominant clubs, and this is something your records will help you on, but I doubt if anybody has ever given you this, out here at this library. You had really three dominant private organizations within the framework. There was the officially elected county committee, and there's a good point--I suppose you have a political science major do you, or what is your major?

JOHNSON: I have some political science, but my major was history


RANDALL: History, that's a good one. The committee is actually elected at the primary, and they are elected officials just as much as somebody that's elected in November, in our Missouri system of laws. So here's the county committee that's elected; they are the elected officials in the machinery of the county. But in the background, the dominant situation was three political clubs, massive clubs; the Jackson Democratic Club, which as a student you probably figured out was called the Goats. The second, almost as big, was the Shannon Club; it was called the Regular Democratic Club. It was led by Joseph B. Shannon and Pat Shannon [his son], who was a fraternity brother of mine. I was almost a Rabbit. They were called Rabbits; I was almost a Rabbit instead of a Goat. But then the third, and a little less in size, was called the "Welchites"--under Cassimer J. Welch--and they were sometimes called the 15th Street Group, or the Second Ward, but they expanded from the Second Ward over into the Fourth, and into some of the surrounding wards. They were third in size. Those three were the dominant clubs and they were unofficial.

JOHNSON: And they were all lobbying for their own candidates in the primary.


RANDALL: They were all opponents of each other. I guess you could say that more frequently the Welch faction lined up with Pendergast rather than with the Rabbits. They varied back and forth; some years they'd be with Shannon and some years with Pendergast.

JOHNSON: Did you ever meet with Truman when he was a Senator in Washington?

RANDALL: I not only met with him, my dear friend; I worked diligently for him. Not in Washington, no, but here.

JOHNSON: The '40 campaign for instance?

RANDALL: In '34; let's back up some, let's back up six years. I'm watching my time carefully because I have to get away from here in about a half an hour.

JOHNSON: We'll have to have two sessions.

RANDALL: Well, we'll take another bite at it.

In 1934, I, William J. Randall, made several speeches in behalf of Harry Truman where he could not be. But more than that, I was a real trusted courier to actually deliver money, actually deliver funds, the life blood of his campaign, to the place where it had to be delivered. It was because of my strong friendship with E.I. "Buck" Purcell, who was certainly


the closest friend that Mr. Truman ever had in office. I would go to Warrensburg, go to Butler; I would go to Harrisonville, of course. I think that maybe once I went as far as Osceola, but the one that stays in my mind most of all was a frantic trip on a Friday night to Nevada, Missouri. That's 90 miles, if you're not familiar with it. I drove like crazy to get there because Buck said to me, "Bill, you've got to be there, you've got to take this envelope; you've got to be there and make a speech for Mr. Truman." Here they were on the Court House square, a big crowd. [John J.] Cochran was there, Cochran of St. Louis was running against him. What was the other fellow from Joplin? Jacob L. "Tuck" Milligan]. It was a three or four-way race. Truman pulled it out of the fire. I got there just in time to appear and make a speech for him. If I do say so, I think we fared fairly well, and kept him from being unrepresented that night. Of course, I made several other trips, to Columbia and different places around.

JOHNSON: I think they were operating out of Sedalia, their headquarters, in '34?

RANDALL: That could have been, I'm not sure. I wasn't on the state level. I was working for Buck Purcell, not


working for him, but as his helper.

JOHNSON: You were well acquainted with Fred Canfil?

RANDALL: Fred, let's see, what did we call him? "Bull" Canfil, I guess we called him. Fred was not one of my favorites. Oh, yes, I have known him but he was not one of my favorites.

JOHNSON: A gruff kind of person?

RANDALL: Well, may his soul be at peace and rest in heaven; he was a man who was without much intellectual capacity. I'm not saying he was a brick short of a full load, or a short deck, but he was a man who relied on--I don't want to say on bulldozing somebody--but he used his strength to overpower someone rather than try to reason with someone. He didn't have the capacity to do anything like that [to reason with someone].

JOHNSON: It's kind of interesting that Truman stayed with him, or relied on him so much.

RANDALL: Well, this ought to be off the record but--oh, it's all right, I don't care. There's some things in the paper today about loyalty. There's nothing wrong with loyalty; don't misunderstand me. I think loyalty is akin almost to gratitude, and loyalty is a great


thing. In this morning's paper, Bill Waris showed his loyalty for Virgil Troutwine who helped him be where he was in 1982; gave him a job when the budget was supposed to be short. There may have been something in the background of the war experience that I didn't know about; maybe that was the cause of the loyalty of Mr. Truman to Canfil, but even if so, I think he elevated him far beyond his capacity.

JOHNSON: He was chauffeuring pretty much during the '34 campaign, but then he was made Marshall of the Federal judicial district here.

RANDALL: That's right. Now, let's go up to the 1940 campaign.

JOHNSON: With [Lloyd C.] Stark and Truman.

RANDALL: I was philosophically and ideologically, totally at odds with Stark. I just thought that he was not an evil person necessarily, but almost. I forget how I got off on the foot that way, I guess in Jefferson City. I just regard him as a man who was a sort of an imposter at being Governor, but he was Governor anyhow.

You talk about driving Mr. Truman. His driver in 1940 was a man by the name of Hunter Allen. I don't know if in any of your research you've ever found that


or not, but Hunter Allen was his driver. And Hunter Allen was his driver on the County Court too. Hunter Allen was my precinct captain.

JOHNSON: He drove Truman in the '40 campaign?

RANDALL: That is correct. He was my precinct captain during the '30s, up until well, I