Oral History Interview with Judge Marvin Jones
Washington, D.C. [Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | Additional Jones Oral History Transcripts] Notice Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview. RESTRICTIONS Opened May, 1971 [Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | Additional Jones Oral History Transcripts]
Oral History Interview with Washington, D.C. HESS: Judge, I understand that your name was one of those that was under consideration for the vice-presidential spot in 1940. What can you tell me about that? JONES: Well, it was -- several of the newspapers carried me among a list of others, but I wasn't particularly interested in that position at that time and... I can tell you some things that were said to me by a high up authority, but I won't. Perhaps some would not believe it anyway. HESS: Why weren't you interested? JONES: Well, I don't know, I'd prefer not to say, because I wasn't very enthusiastic about breaking the two term tradition. There were a number of people that are outspoken, but I was going to remain a Democrat and carry through, so I just prefer not to say much. HESS: Who else was under consideration at that time? JONES: There were -- the list of names, five or six were mentioned in the newspapers from time to time, but these were highly speculative. As I recall, was Alben Barkley, Sam Rayburn and several others. I am sure the newspaper files would show. HESS: Henry Wallace? JONES: Henry Wallace was also named as being under consideration, but not many of them mentioned his name, some of them did. There was considerable speculation, but not much information. They finally narrowed it down and some of them told me, they narrowed it down to two names, but I prefer not to... HESS: Okay, one more question: Did you ever speak with President Roosevelt on that matter? JONES: Yes, we had some conversation about the possibilities, and some of those under him were speaking about it, but you know people who understand each other may have meaningful discussions with calling a spade a spade. At that time, he wasn't disclosing that he was going to run. The last conversation I had with him about the whole matter was in June. He talked about how Hitler was wanting to conquer the world, had emissaries all over South America, said we must make plans. He specifically urged me to not accept the judicial position to which I had already been confirmed -- said he needed me. I finally agreed to not take the oath until toward the end of the year. He didn't talk like a man who was quitting. I had no doubt then that he would run. In fact, later when Wallace was nominated, the President made me promise to go with him on his barnstorming tour throughout the nation. I could tell you more, but that is enough. He didn't disclose until convention that he would run, that is, in definite terms. People were talking -- Garner announced you know, and so did Jim Farley. Both of them were campaigning his forces at the convention. HESS: Now both of those men were against the third term weren't they? JONES: They were outspoken against more than two terms. HESS: Or against the third term suggestion? JONES: Yes, against it. HESS: Breaking the tradition. JONES: The two term tradition. Against any three consecutive terms. But I took no part in that because I was a Democrat and while there wasn't anything in the law to prevent a man running for more than two terms, those opposing an additional term said they wanted to be sure that any President didn't build up a following that would enable him to run indefinitely and possibly change the form of government. That was not the theory, or not the practice, but nevertheless, I figured that whoever was nominated I was going to support. For years I had had the honors of the party and I felt I had no right to quit the team after the play had started. The breaking up into splinter parties is what got France and many other countries in trouble. Coalition governments rarely last long. I intended to support President Roosevelt if he was nominated and I told him so definitely. And then after Wallace was chosen, the President wanted me to go with him on the campaign. And I went. HESS: We mentioned last time that Mr. Bankhead had asked you to go to Iowa for the notification speech, is that right? JONES: Yes. And that speech is in the Congressional Record. HESS: And then did you stay and go on the part of the campaign? JONES: Yes, when I stayed there according to the wishes of the President, he personally spoke to me about that after Wallace was nominated, but said he wanted me to go with Wallace on the barnstorming tour. HESS: What did he say to you at the time that he asked you to go? Why did he want you to go? JONES: Well, I don't know. He said I was more experienced than Wallace. He mentioned the fact that I had for many years been speaking all over the country in the Democratic tradition and I had been in charge of the western headquarters in 1936 of the Democratic Committee at Chicago when for the first time we carried practically all the western farm states. I was in charge of the western headquarters and assigned all the speakers in the West and he added, "You are well-known and popular among the farmers." In 1936 I was placed in charge, and we had the Chicago headquarters -- we sent out thirty-six million pieces of literature from there in that campaign. The people wouldn't read long printed speeches. And we'd get out a little two-leaf cartoon folder on each subject, tell how the vote of the Republicans was on that subject and how the Democrats had voted. The majority of the Republicans in the House that year had voted against practically everything that we had proposed including the rural electrification (I was amazed at that), and we got for each subject they had voted against. They weren't much for the farm deal, that is the farm program as we had fashioned it. Joe Martin, the new leader, was trying to build up a reputation of holding the members in line and he did a pretty good job. Martin was a good organizer. Anyhow, we would get out on rural electrification -- on the Farm Credit Administration on marketing agreements, on corn, hogs and wheat prices, showing that farm prices were better and farm interest rates much lower than at any time in recent years. We had a good cartoonist. We had a cartoon on every leaflet. On rural electrification we had a cartoon of a woman on an old wash tub, and then -- another woman standing right by her electric washer smiling. And then we just had a few sentences. I had learned the value of short, crisp sentences. And we'd say on the passage of this measure and that measure, we had about a dozen different -- major farm programs. We would show the vote on those various commodities separately. We would show the difference in the interest rate of the home tenant purchases, each on a separate leaflet citing the various acts that we had passed, but each separately and we would say, "Before they were passed the interest rates were so much, and after the passage of these acts it was so much lower." Just a half a dozen sentences, great big letters. "Do you want this repealed?" "Do you want that repealed?" "Do you wish it repealed?" Western Democratic state headquarters would ask for 5,000 or 10,000 at one time. They called me out to speak so much that I would go out and make two or three speeches and come back and then assign the other speakers. And Paul Porter was out there. He helped write those just single sentences. I told him what I wanted. Paul Porter could give you that story, and he's a whizz anyway, a very able man. Anyhow he was young, but he knew how to get things done and he was an enthusiast. I campaigned in all those Western States in 1936. I went up to Wisconsin to speak and they said, "We want five thousand copies of that leaflet on the milk, and milk products subject." Over on the side were stacks of congressional printed speeches, many packages unopened sent out from the general headquarters. I looked over there at the stacks of printed speeches and said, "You apparently already have plenty of campaign literature on hand." He replied, "We don't pay attention to them. People don't read them, but they read those leaflets." The national committee had sent the speeches and they sometimes helped if someone was particularly interested. But people told me time and time again in many places, "These people get those little leaflets and carry them around in their pockets." I spoke in practically all those Western States except in Cliff [Clifford] Hope's district in Kansas. Farley sent word to me, wrote me a letter, that he wanted me to go down in Cliff Hope's district and speak. I believe he called me up on the phone after that. And I said, "I'll go down there if you want me to, but I'll brag on Cliff Hope because he is one of the few," -- he was the ranking Republican on the Agricultural Committee who supported the program in most instances. And he said, "I guess I had better not send you down there." Anyhow, in Minnesota, the state chairman came to see me. He came to Chicago for some purpose and came up to see me and said, "They want me to invite Cordell Hull up to speak at Minneapolis," (I think it was, or -- yes Minneapolis), "and they want him to come up and talk on the 'favored nations' agreement." The chairman said, "I told them I will invite him if they would permit me to write you to speak at the same meeting. If you come along, well, I'll go ahead and invite him." I told him that he shouldn't make that as a condition that Cordell Hull was one of the truly great men of the nation, and that he would get a crowd alone. But he stood his ground. I finally said I would go and make a short talk, but let him make the principal speech. Hull made a great speech, told a few western stories, and I bragged on Hull. I am sure he never knew of the attitude of the state chairman. It worked out fine. HESS: Well, when you were traveling with Mr. Wallace, what cities did you go to? JONES: Well, we first went -- we started out in Chicago and spoke at Springfield, and Decatur, oh, I know several little towns, on a barnstorming tour through Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma. I could look up the... HESS: Oh, that's all right. JONES: The national committee would have that record. We spoke at about -- I think we spoke two days in Illinois and we'd speak at a lot of little towns, five or six speeches each day. And they'd have a good crowd. Whenever we were booked we'd just make short speeches, and Wallace always made the last speech. HESS: What kind of impression was Wallace making on the voters at this time, did you feel? JONES: Well, he -- in the farm areas he was more favorably received than in some of the other areas. Of course, there were some objections to the first part of the AAA because they had accused him of killing the little pigs. HESS: Every third pig, and every third row of corn. Did you hear any objections, did you hear any statements by farmers in the audience at this time about... JONES: There wasn't so much at that time. I go back now since you mentioned it. When I delivered the address notifying Wallace (to go back to that), Mr. Rockefeller (I think it's the same one that is Governor in New York, but I'm not sure), he told somebody that they nominated the wrong man for Vice President. I don't know whether he'd confirm that or if he would remember it. HESS: He liked your speech? JONES: Well, apparently he did, I don't know. Anyhow, as we went along, Wallace improved a great deal. I mean it was a little difficult to keep him from -- you know he was so inclined to just talk along and speak somewhat off-the-cuff and sometimes he'd say some things that didn't seem to ring the bell. Cliff [Clifford V.] Gregory of the Prairie Farms would talk to him afterwards, but he improved a good deal in his speaking during that campaign. We would urge him to put more life into his speeches, to talk like he really meant it. We spoke in Missouri, Illinois into Missouri, and into Iowa, which was it? Illinois joins there in the corner of Missouri doesn't it? Illinois? HESS: Yes. JONES: We spoke at about ten or twelve places in Illinois and across into, well we -- across into Missouri, went through Missouri and through the corner of Kansas and then through Oklahoma, spoke a number of different places. We were about three weeks on that barnstorming trip and I tell you it got to be popular because it was a little different from what had been the custom. We'd drive in cars most of the time, but if there was a big leap we'd get on the train. People would furnish the cars and some of them were taking along cars anyway and would drive them even when we had plenty of transportation. HESS: A car caravan from town to town. JONES: Yes. And then when we arrived at Woodward, Oklahoma -- we'd spoken at, oh, several different places in Oklahoma, I remember Woodward where we wound up. I had just gotten that wire that I should come back because there was going to be a close vote on the extension of the draft. So, I had to leave the caravan. I did go on with him to Amarillo because it was a couple of days before the vote on the draft. I went on and got off the train at Amarillo about midnight of the same night we had spoken at Woodward. The next day I could get a through train to Washington. I could go from Amarillo to Chicago on that Santa Fe Special. As I recall they were taking the train to California with Wallace who said he hoped I could rejoin them as soon as possible. I rejoined them in the Midwest on the way back from California, and made a few speeches with the group. Finally the caravan ended and special speeches were made by Wallace and others under assignment. I made several speeches as did others under assignment of the Democratic Wallace Committee. The caravan had crossed the continent both ways, had been a spectacular accomplishment, but proved to be wearing on the principal and expensive to the committee. Wallace developed a good deal in the way of speaking. I would keep insisting, I would say, "Show a little more enthusiasm." I would say, "You've gone over this same thing time and time again and it's not new to you." I got him pretty well along and Cliff Gregory would prod him too. I think Cliff Gregory went on with him, but he left before I joined on the way back. He needed to rejoin his farm paper. He published that paper and had been with them a long time. Then I came with him on the way from Illinois. We came back through Michigan and through those areas toward the coast. HESS: A few years later, Wallace was regarded as being quite a liberal and quite far to the left. If you agree with that statement, why do you think that that would have developed. Why did Wallace have these inclinations to being an extreme liberal? JONES: Well, he was, Wallace was considerably a dreamer anyway, and he had a great heart, and he wanted to do everything he could to help people in the world. He just gradually, I think, developed a good deal more that way when he was footloose and then finally he, well you remember, he ran for the President on an independent ticket later. He made some rather rash statements. His defeat for the renomination in 1944 was a great disappointment to him. Anyway he went far to the left. And then ran for President as an independent. HESS: In 1948. JONES: Wallace had a lot of fine qualities. He was very pleasant. I always got along with him very well. Time and time again he'd make some statements that would make it necessary for me to get up on the floor of the House and defend him. HESS: Do you recall what some of those statements were? What were the nature of them? JONES: Well, when the Agricultural Adjustment Act was held invalid in 1936, January the 6th, 1936, the law levied processing fees, you see, on all these major commodities. As a practical matter the Department found it necessary to delay collection of the processing taxes. When the tax was paid at once, and then the commodity is shipped out, it was passed on right through the retailer to the consumer. If the manufacturer had to pay the tax at once, he had in some instances to wait two or three months to collect from the dealer or retailer. He would pass the tax on, but he wouldn't get his pay until the bill was collected. So he was given from sixty to ninety days, and in some instances a hundred and eighty days, to pay the tax, but in some instances the dealer paid the tax at once to get the cash discount. When the tax was invalidated these processors had about two hundred million dollars in their pocket which they had passed on and collected, that much that they hadn't turned over to the Government yet. I knew that most of them would turn it back since they had collected and there wasn't any practical way to refund it to the individual consumers. Henry Wallace gave out a statement, it was a public statement, that these processors were guilty of highway robbery in retaining these funds, that it amounted to legalized robbery. In fact he used other similar terms. Wallace wasn't particularly popular in the House. I was preparing some legislation at the time to require that (most of them were going to pay it back voluntarily as soon as they found out who to pay it to), but I was going to require them to return it to the U.S. Treasury unless it had already been paid as collected taxes. Well, Congressman Allen Towner Treadway of Massachusetts got up and said that Wallace should be impeached for making such a statement, that there was no obligation on the part of the manufacturers to do anything since the taxes were illegal. At any rate he made the flat statement that Wallace should be impeached. I arose to question Treadway, and I said, "Who do you think ought to have this money? Should the processors have it, or should the tax be turned over to the Government even though it is an illegal tax?" He said, "It's an illegal tax and they don't have to do anything." I said, "It's got to -- it'll either go back into the Treasury or it'll be an unearned increment of some kind, or a windfall." This is all in the Congressional Record -- at least in the Daily Record. Well, they all sort of quieted down after that, but they had been storming around about his giving out that statement. Some of the manufacturers hadn't said what they were going to do. So, I drafted a bill to return the money to the Treasury. The balance in the hands of the processors was about two hundred million dollars. There was very little opposition to the bill for returning the money to the Treasury. Some of the processors said, "We are holding this money and we want to know who we should give it to." We passed that bill right away to require the processors to refund it unless they had already turned it in. Any part that hadn't been turned in, so it went back into the Treasury. I explained that on a theory that there wasn't any way to send it back to the -- all the people that had paid it, and I said, "The whole country in the using of these food products had paid it, that was the best way to try to get it back where it should be placed." That measure went through and then another problem came up. It was toward the end of the session, and Chester Davis called me up. He was the Administrator of the AAA at that time. He said, "These farmers have complied with their contracts. You know they had agreed to adjust their acreage of certain commodities. These winter wheat and other crops are planned and planted long ago. They've kept their part of the contracts, and they ought to be paid because they acted in good faith." And I said, "How much is it?" He said, "It's a hundred and ninety-six million dollars." And he said, "It ought to be done right away. They're getting unhappy. If we are going to tell them they aren't going to be paid after they carried out a part of an agreement in good faith we will have a storm on hand." And he says, "Can you get it through?" And I said, "That'll be tough at this time because it's too late to go through the budget. This is the last appropriations bill -- the deficiency bill we're going to have," but I said, "I'll do the best I can." I went to see [Congressman James P.] Buchanan, the Chairman of the Appropriations Committee, and explained it to him. He had a farm district himself, and he asked -- he had already reported the deficiency bill which is the last big appropriation bill. And I said, "Now, I want to offer an amendment to that bill." And he asked me how much it would take. When I told him how much it was, he whistled. I said, "These farmers acted in good faith when they complied with these plans, planting some crops, some of them non-compensating, some of them cover crops and soil building practices." I said, "I want to offer an amendment to add $196,000,000 to the appropriation bill which you have just reported to the House." In fact, it was scheduled to be taken up in the House that -- as soon as the House met, which was within a few minutes. It hadn't been authorized by his committee, but I mentioned it to those I saw and I didn't know whether I could get it through. Buchanan said, "Well, I think it ought to go through. It ought to go through now." And he added, "You go across the aisle and talk to John Taber, he is from New York and he is the watchdog of the Treasury as you know. He carefully examines every item, but," he says, "he is fair. You go talk to him," the House was just meeting, "and tell him what you want to do." I went over to see Taber and Buchanan had added, "If he doesn't object," he said, "probably you may get it through." I went over and talked to Taber and told him the facts. I said, "I think the farmers ought to be paid." He said, "I think so too. How much will it take?" And I told him a hundred and ninety-six million. He also whistled to beat the band. "Well," I said, "that's the only way, and it's gong to be paid some time, John, and this is the only chance to get it through in time, and you might just as well keep them in good humor the best you can, because they're hurt anyway about the knocking out of that farm bill." He said, "I may ask you a few questions, but I don't think I'll object. You go ahead and offer your amendment." I offered that amendment to add a hundred and ninety-six million dollars to compensate the farmers for the part of the work that they'd already done in good faith. It was just a very simple amendment. Taber got up and asked some questions, made me explain just what it was about, and then he said, "Well, I'm not going to object, I think the farmers ought to be paid." So, they went through by unanimous consent. Any member could have objected. A hundred and ninety-six million dollars that hadn't even been budgeted. And they hardly ever... HESS: That's a lot of money. JONES: I went over and thanked John Taber. I had a great regard for him because -- he could be very stern. He was Republican, but he was a very fine Representative, and he stayed in Congress over thirty years. (Everybody believed in his integrity.) But I think that was a remarkable accomplishment. HESS: Now, moving on to another subject, I understand that not too long after the 1940 election you were offered the job of Secretary of Agriculture. Is that right? JONES: I was offered it more than once. HESS: When was the first time? JONES: The first time I was -- it was not offered by the President, but the first time was when Wallace and Flynn, who was the Democratic National Committeeman in New York... HESS: Ed [Edward J.] Flynn. Is that right? JONES: Ed Flynn. And they telephoned me at about 11:30 o'clock at night after I was asleep and said, "Do you want to be Secretary of Agriculture?" And I said, "No, I wouldn't have the job." And they seemed surprised. HESS: About what time was it? JONES: It was about 11:30 at night. HESS: No, what day, month, year... JONES: Well, it was... HESS: In 1940? JONES: In 1940 after the... HESS: Convention? JONES: After the convention and after Wallace had been nominated. HESS: After the convention, before the election? JONES: Yes, and before the election. And -- yes it was before the election. And then I told them I didn't want it and they seemed a little surprised and said, "Would you want it from now until the end of the term?" I said, "No, I wouldn't want it for that." I said, "I wouldn't mind being in the position temporarily, but the President has asked me to campaign. The Democratic Committee wants me." And I said, "I can be of more value in the campaign because of my experience in campaigning than if I'm handicapped by being a Cabinet officer, so I'd rather not have that." And then when I -- in 1942, James F. Byrnes phoned me and said the President wanted me to be War Food Administrator, and I have a record of conversation. I won't go into detail. Byrnes asked me to have dinner with him one night. I had dinner at his home out at the Shoreham and he said, "The President and I worked out a plan to establish a War Food Administrator to be under the Secretary of Agriculture, but -- technically, he would have charge of all the active agencies of the Department of Agriculture, and the President's going to ask you to be War Food Administrator under that plan." "Well," I said, "I don't think that I would want to go under the present Secretary of Agriculture. Besides I think the Secretary of Agriculture ought to be Food Administrator." HESS: It was Claude Wickard at the time. JONES: And it was Claude Wickard at the time and he said, "Well, he'll appoint you Secretary of Agriculture. The President has indicated that he'd appoint you Secretary of Agriculture any time that you wanted it, and he'd just as soon do it that way. He would give Wickard another job." And I said, no, I wouldn't want to take the job under Claude Wickard. I know there's a good deal of disagreement and feeling in the Department of Agriculture, and some of them felt that Wickard was preferred over some of those who have been in the Department longer. I told him I thought I might have difficulty in getting along if I were under Wickard. And I said, "I think the Secretary of Agriculture should be appointed and given full authority." And he said, "If you'll just agree to take it, he'll appoint you Secretary of Agriculture." I said, "No, I can't do it. I'm not going to give up the place that I have. It's what I have always wanted. I'll take leave of absence and do most anything during the war." The next morning, about 11 o'clock on December the 4th, Byrnes phoned and said that he had talked to the President and the President still wanted me to take the position, and Byrnes said, "There isn't any question, he'll put you Secretary of Agriculture if you want it." Jimmy Byrnes was a court reporter as a young man, before he came to Congress. And he had a custom, in what he regarded as important conversation, of taking it down in shorthand. Byrnes surprised me with a copy of our conversation and I have a typed copy of the conversation that we carried on which showed that the President still was anxious for me to be War Food Administrator. And he said, "If you agree to accept, he will appoint you Secretary of Agriculture." And I still said, "No." And then I said something about reasons and that I thought I'd have difficulty with Claude Wickard. I went ahead to say that if Chester Davis was over there, I'd be glad to accept. I could work with Chester Davis I know and I said, "I don't know whether I could work with Claude Wickard. We'd always been friendly, but I know something about his troubles." I said, "I'd work under Chester Davis because I know there wouldn't be any trouble if I were with him." Byrnes called me up a little later and said, "The President said he would go ahead and experiment by making Claude Wickard Secretary of Agriculture, and War Food Administrator also." But he said, "I doubt whether it will work." The President wasn't very happy over the arrangement apparently. I didn't talk to him on that phase of it. But the President appointed Wickard. I think the appointment became effective in December, 1942. And then in -- just before Christmas or around the first of January, I happened to be on the Hill to attend a Texas delegation luncheon. They have a luncheon every week in the Speaker's Dining Room. I went up, Byrnes was going to speak and I was very fond of Byrnes anyway. I went up to hear him speak. I went up after it was over to congratulate him and he said, "I want you to go back to the -- ride back with me. I am in the East Wing of the White House and I'll take you over by your place;" (which was Seventeenth and Pennsylvania, just diagonally across), "I want to talk to you." On the way he said, "I want you to take a leave of absence and come over and be my assistant and advise me on agricultural matters, because you are thoroughly familiar with those issues." And I told him, "Well, I'll be glad to do that." And I said, "When do you want me?" "Just as soon as you can come." And I said, "I'll have to speak to the Court," and at that time, with war on, we had a lot of contract cases pending in the Court -- but we couldn't get witnesses in many of them. That was a big part of our business, the big contracts that were being made in wartime -- but the retired Army and Navy engineers, were for the most part what were called the Contracting Officers. They would supervise the contracts for the Government. Many of them had been called back into service and were in far away places. We couldn't get the testimony in a great many of those cases and those cases had to be deferred until after the war was over so that witnesses could be present. We had a heavy docket, but the other judges could handle such cases as could be tried at that time. The Court willingly gave me leave of absence for the duration and I went over to Byrnes' office right away. I could tell you some interesting experiences, but there is a limit to what should be included. One of the first assignments I received involved live cattle. War Food and OPA were having a controversy over whether to put a ceiling on live cattle. The cattlemen and packers both were very much opposed to it. That's about the only thing the cattlemen and the packers agreed on. A ceiling should be placed on meats and meat products. The OPA was anxious to put a ceiling on live cattle. Byrnes, the second day after I was with him, called me and said certain officials of the OPA [Office of Price Administration] had requested the cattlemen of the nation to come to Washington to consult whether a ceiling should be placed on live cattle. Byrnes said the cattlemen were disturbed about being called in at this busy time, in fact, were a little out of humor. They were short of both help and supplies, as well as time. I am not going to say who it was, but Byrnes added, "They are so determined that I'm afraid those cattlemen will cause trouble. They are an independent group as you know. Some of them have told me that there isn't any way to tell the quality of meat until you take the hide off." Byrnes said, "You go to the meeting and see if you can keep any trouble from developing." They had one of the representatives of OPA (I won't call his name because he's still living, he might not remember it), but I went over there and Byrnes said, "You go over and keep them from having trouble." He said, "You know those cowmen." This man who was in charge called the meeting to order. It was in a packed auditorium in the basement of -- what's that hotel over there right by the White House there? HESS: The Washington? JONES: The Washington Hotel. And that was right across the street, with the Treasury Building between -- only about a block away. I went over to the auditorium. Every seat was taken and they were standing up around the three walls. The chairman arose, asked for order and said, "Gentlemen, I thank you for attending, for coming to Washington," and he said, "I'd be," -- he started off this way, "I would be less than frank with you if I didn't tell you that we have already decided to put a ceiling on live cattle." Well, they rose up like receiving the benediction. They began to shout, "Why did you bring us to Washington then?" They said, "We're busy out on the ranch. We were called to consult. Why bring us to Washington just to tell us?" And then a bunch of them started for the platform, some of them saying, "Throw him out." I got up and I didn't know what might happen. I was afraid they would manhandle him. They are men of action. Well, I got up immediately and told them, "I'd like to say a word." They quieted down. And I said, "I have just come from Mr. Byrnes' office and he told me that he hadn't yet decided the matter, and he has the last say, and it hasn't been determined, and he'd like to have your reviews and would like to have the discussions here so I can tell him how you feel about it." Then we... HESS: Then they calmed down a little bit. JONES: They calmed down and went ahead and had discussion. And Joe Montague, for 20 years the general attorney, for the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Association, had always been a great friend of mine, he came to me later and said, "You know, it's a good thing you got up when you did because that bunch, I don't know what they would have done. They got worked up -- they would have gone up there and they'd have done something to that fellow and they might have pitched him out into the street." He said, "I don't know what they would have done, and," -- but this particular man just listened, he didn't say a word. The meeting proceeded with an orderly discussion. He didn't even thank me. I didn't think he realized, as I did, what was likely to happen. HESS: How serious the situation was. JONES: How serious it was. He never thanked me, but he never criticized me. He went right ahead and had the conversation. I am sure he did not realize the danger he was in. He did not know these frontiersmen, and sons of frontiersmen who didn't like any sort of pressure talk. I am sure he was in real danger, but I am equally sure he didn't realize it. We had many discussions. That's just one incident. There are always somebody wanting something and I had to interview a great many people. Processors would come in and say the ceiling's too low. And I'd have to have a conversation with them and decide what I thought should be done, if anything. I was getting along pretty good, but they began to talk about Wickard, some of them, and didn't like -- but Wickard, he'd come over to the East Wing when they would want something, or some change. He would bring some other officials with him. He would think they had agreed on something and then one of the fellows under him would offer something different. Wickard never would jump on him, but I could tell that he was bothered about it. We would try to thrash it out and come to an understanding. They came over a number of times, as did many groups and I had to write a number of things for Byrnes affecting agriculture because he had to make the final decision on everything, practically, in the domestic field. Byrnes called me one day in late March or early April and told me, "The President has decided to call an international conference on food and agriculture." HESS: That was the one down in Virginia? JONES: Yes, down in Virginia. Now, I don't guess you want to go into that. HESS: Well, we covered that last time. JONES: I believe we did. HESS: How were you chosen for the position of War Food Administrator? How did that come about? JONES: As a matter of fact, when they decided they were going to have Wickard leave, the Mobilization Committee and two or three others, Bernard Baruch, "Barney" they called him, a lot of people did -- they were all meeting and they usually called me in on those meetings, but this time -- they were holding a meeting to advise that they were going to change Food Administrators I didn't know about what purpose, but before they went in Byrnes told me, he said, "I think I had better warn you that they're going to select a new War Food Administrator and I think they are going to pick you." And he said, "I thought I'd better warn you. They will send for you in a little while I'm sure, and I think that you should know it. I ought to tell you what they're going to consider." In about fifteen minutes they sent for me to come in and I went into that great big bunch in there, you know, including Harry Hopkins, Barney Baruch and several others, and Byrnes announced that, "We're going to -- we've decided that we're going to appoint somebody as War Food Administrator in place of Mr. -- in place of Claude Wickard. He seems to be having trouble, and we're going to appoint a new man." I immediately spoke up and said, "I have just the man for the place." I was ducking it. That's one job I did not want. HESS: You were ready for them? JONES: I was ready for them and I gave them a good selling there for a few minutes. And I said, "Now Chester Davis is the most experienced, one of the most experienced, men in the United States and the most experienced in administering agricultural programs. He's been head for years of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration in Agriculture.” They put him on the Federal Reserve Board and he left voluntarily to become president of the Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis, a position he now holds. And I said, "He's the best man that you can pick and I'd like to have you consider him." The Regional Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis is an important place, and he's had a background. As a young man he was minister of agriculture in one of the big western states. He has a degree from an A & M college. He has come before my committee many, many times, in former days before I was chairman of that committee. We have always been good friends. He knows the subject." They listened very carefully. I gave them a good selling. They said, "We thank you," and I got up and walked out. In a few minutes, Jimmy Byrnes came out and came by and he said, "You're the damdest man I've ever seen. They had already agreed to appoint you -- to recommend to the President for appointment as War Food Administrator. And you talked them out of it." "Well," I said, "I'm glad I did. I don't want the job." I think we discussed the other day about his staying in there while I went down to the Food Conference and then I came back, I think I've recited how that they decided -- well, then the President called me himself after Chester Davis had sent an immediate resignation, to be effective at the end of the (that was I think sometime in early June), to be effective when the programs were laid out. It would be effective in the fall. Well, he had sent it over at night, almost after our conversation, and so the President apparently was peeved about it, so he just accepted his resignation effective immediately. I didn't know it until Byrnes called me. And the next day the President called me himself and he said, "I'm going to appoint a new War Food Administrator." In the meantime they had changed that provision when Chester Davis came in, to make him just in active, complete charge, of all the active branches of the Department of Agriculture which left a sort of a shell. Harry Hopkins said at the time, "If I were Wickard, I'd resign as Secretary of Agriculture." And I said, "Oh, I don't know, he's got a job that he likes." But he didn’t have much to do after that as Secretary of Agriculture because the authority had been taken away from him. Anyway, the next, the next morning after that resignation, the President had sent him a letter, accepting his resignation immediately Then the President called me up and said, "I'm going to appoint a new War Food Administrator, and the choice is between you and Mr. Hoover, Herbert Hoover." Well, he didn't like Hoover I knew. HESS: Did he say that in a joking manner? JONES: Oh, it was evidently spoken facetiously and he laughed when he said that. And I said, "Well, Mr. President, Mr. Hoover's an experienced man in that field." He said, "You're not going to throw me off the track this time." He said, "You're the man for this place, you're the man I've always wanted for it from the beginning and I want to appoint you." And I said, "Well, I'd like to suggest somebody else. I'd like to suggest Spike Evans," who had been AAA Administrator when Davis left over there and had as much experience, than he had when Davis left and went to St. Louis, he took Davis' place over on the -- and he was an able man. He knew a lot about agriculture. I suggested four or five. And he said, "They are not well enough known." And I -- he turned me down every one I suggested. I was trying to get out of it even then. I didn't want the place. And then I finally told him I said, "Well, I don't know, if I consider it I would like to have it just for a year because I don't know when they are going to be needing me back on the Court." And he said, "Well, you go over and straighten that out for a year and then we'll talk about it." And I said, "Well, if I go over, I'd like to be a member of the Mobilization Committee," which was the little war cabinet. "Fine, I'll make you that." And I said, "Well, I'll go over and try it for a while, try it a year." Well, I went over there and it was a difficult place because the demand for food was something tremendous, and they had taken many boys off the farm. There was a shortage of labor everywhere. Many of the young men that were helping run the farms, yet we were called upon to increase production, in every way we could to induce the great production. Which we did. And we increased every year. Notwithstanding the shortage of labor, the production of the necessary food increased all the way from 10 to 40 percent each year. And then we had to buy. I bought an average of five million dollars worth of food per day for lend-lease. I had contracts with fifteen hundred warehouses. We had the responsibility of storing and transporting the food to New York, and loading on ships at New York and Seattle, and other export places, several of them. Then we had to be responsible for the packaging. There was a shortage of packaging material. Did I go over this before? HESS: We mentioned some of the difficulties that... JONES: Well, I don't need to go over that again do I? HESS: No. JONES: I would like to show -- you know that I had a letter from Bernard Baruch on October the 4th, 1944 after I had been in War Food fifteen months. I think I'll read that into this record. HESS: That's fine. JONES: It's addressed to me. "You certainly have done a good job as Food Administrator with little noise, but with great effect. I do not see you," (he was a troubleshooter you know for the President), "I do not see you as much as I would like, but there is nothing to talk to you about because you undertook a job and you have done it. I congratulate you and want to say how deeply I appreciate your fine efforts. I wish our paths crossed oftener, but my feet only lead me where there is trouble I can help avoid. You don't need any of this because you see far ahead and act before the trouble occurs. Again my congratulations. Sincerely, Bernard M. Baruch." HESS: What was your impression of Bernard Baruch and his general effectiveness? JONES: He was very effective. He was a very able man. He talked to me before I went over to War Food, and after I had started the work. He invited me to dinner at the Carlton Hotel. He had a Mr. Hancock and two other experts with him. They kept him informed as to all branches of the Government, and did research for him. I had talked to him and Mr. Hancock, both of whom had a great interest in War Food, especially as to the difficulties and trouble that had arisen before I had gone over there. Baruch wrote me two letters. I was surprised to receive these letters. In one he said, "I'm glad to see your position in regard to the distribution of our agricultural products. People seem to think that America is an inexhaustible source of everything. Under your direction agriculture has done a fine job and you certainly have done a good job in that distribution. It is impossible to give the whole world what they want, whether it is in arms, food, credit or material. I do not come to see you because I do not want to take up your time. And I know if you thought that I could do anything, you would let me know. I wish everything would go as smoothly as you have been running your show. But congratulations and best wishes. B.M. Baruch." Well, that was written me on March the 17th, 1945 and I don't mean that we didn't have some difficulties. We had many serious problems. I told you about one or two of them. I am sure you will not want me to go into some of the other serious problems that we had. HESS: Well, we discussed a couple of them. Let me ask you just a few general questions. What were your duties in relation to the War Production Board? JONES: They allotted all critical materials and men. Donald Nelson was the chairman. The Board would meet regularly. Sometimes a subcommittee would meet. The Board would have regular meetings with the whole Board about once a month. As a member, I attended several of them, but they'd talk about so many different problems of other agencies that had no connection with my work that I was unable to attend regularly. Donald Nelson didn't usually attend but would come occasionally to the Board meetings, but he'd have somebody preside for him. HESS: Who ran them when he didn't come? JONES: I didn't get your question. HESS: Who presided when he did not come? JONES: Usually one of his assistants. It was a tremendous organization and they had -- the Secretary of War presided once when I was over there. They would change even while the meeting was going on. Different people would present their problems and then leave. I would ask to be excused when they were discussing other matters. I needed to be back at my work. I would always attend when they'd call me -- or when I called them and told them I would like to come over and talk with them about some War Food needs. They had a tough assignment anyway with so many allotment problems. Donald Nelson was always busy but he was a good man. As a matter of fact, the whole setup was pretty well handled. The assignment of men and materials of all kinds covered a vast field. You don't want anything about the Hot Springs conference? HESS: No, I think we've got it. JONES: I told you about being invited to the White House didn't I, before? You may have to rearrange some of this. HESS: Oh, that will be quite all right. JONES: I left the subject, because I thought you wanted to get to the subject of what I knew about Mr. Truman. You had something else in mind. HESS: Well, tell me about the visits to the White House. Perhaps we've got that down, but it doesn't ring any bells here now. JONES: My visit to the White House, what do you mean? HESS: Well, you mentioned a few minutes ago something about a visit to the White House I believe. JONES: At the end of the year, after I had been in War Food a year, a little before Bernard Baruch had written this first letter that I have quoted, I decided that I would go and see the President. I was directed by the order to report to the President if something came up that he was interested in. Anyhow I would go to the White House to see Byrnes every week or two. We'd have problems between War Food and OPA. And I would go over and see Byrnes because as a practical matter he had the final say. I would go to [Fred M.] Vinson's office first while I was War Food Administrator. But after I had been over in War Food a year, I went over to see the President, because he had said that I could come to see him any time I thought it was wise. I didn't go much during that period, but I went over at the end of the first year. He was sitting at his desk writing something. He looked up, smiled and greeted me. I was standing there by his desk, and I said, "Mr. President, my year is up." He went back to writing. He said, "You know they're shooting boys over in Europe that desert on the field of battle." We both laughed when he said that. He said, "You go on back and finish your job." I felt he wouldn't relieve me, but I thought that I would just remind him. The President rather liked friendly banter. But then -- coming back to Mr. Truman. When he was in the Senate he was head of an investigating committee which investigated the operations of the government agencies, including the independent agencies. He resigned when he was elected Vice President, but the committee continued. After they had finished with War Food, one of the committee remarked that they wished some of the other agencies were doing as good job as I did, as I had. We had a lot of other problems. I think I told you about being called to Byrnes' office, and told about this synthetic rubber. Didn't I tell you about that? HESS: Yes. JONES: Well, I don't know of anything else. HESS: This brings us up pretty close to Mr. Truman. It's about 11:30, do you think this is enough for this morning? Are you getting tired? JONES: No. How much time are we going to take on Mr. Truman? HESS: Well, I'm not sure. Now, just on what occasions did you see Mr. Truman? JONES: Well, I saw Mr. Truman every once in a while. I would see him at receptions. I saw him at the National Press Club, also at Mr. Rayburn's office on the Hill and at various places. He was never a pretentious man and I would frequently see him at dinners and on special occasions. After he was President even, he would come in and just say a few words of greeting to the people. I saw him at the Press Club a number of times and I had a visit with him on the train while returning to Washington, and I would run across him sometimes when he was walking. I would get up early and take a walk. I wouldn't see him often, as I usually walked in a different direction. When we met he always stopped and spoke, very pleasantly. Then after he was named Vice President, I told you about the boat scene. HESS: What about the boat scene? JONES: There were several of us who would go over to an old millstream and lake that had been dammed up near Cambridge, Maryland and fish; Mr. Rayburn, Mr. [James M.] Barnes, who was one of the President's secretaries, Jesse Wolcott, of the Banking and Currency Committee, and several others. There were about eight or ten of us there on this particular weekend. It was a good fishing place. They had made a lodge out of this old millhouse that was built in revolutionary days. The old mill wheel was still there. The lodge was reasonably priced and the lake was privately owned, so we went over as paying guests always. Mr. Truman went over there right after he was elected Vice President. While there he said he wanted to go down the river in the boat with Jim Barnes and me and watch us fish. Jim Barnes was secretary of the President. Barnes sat in one end and I sat in the other and the man in the middle rowed the boat, he was an expert oarsman. Mr. Truman said, "I'll sit there by," (I shouldn't say Mr. Truman, I should say the Vice President), "by the oarsman." It was a broad middle seat so the oarsman could row the boat without any trouble. We went down the river three or four miles. As we returned there was a big bunch of lily pads just before we got back to the lodge. It was cold weather, it was in November after the election. When we got up to the lily pads and started through, Mr. Barnes said, "Mr. Vice President, it's going to be a little tough for the oarsman going through these lily pads, I think it would be wise if you moved back and sat with me, since we can't fish in the thick lily pads anyway. Come back and sit down by me." The Vice President, like he always does, stood up quickly to move back. The boat evidently rocked and the distinguished guest fell into the water. The back of his heels caught on the edge of the boat, and he grabbed the edge of the boat with his hands. He was very agile and quick. He went up to his mouth or his nose, his glasses didn't fall off. He got thoroughly soaked and Barnes, Jim Barnes and I both got up and told the boatman to get over on the other side and we pulled him back into the boat. He laughed about it. He was a good sport always. At the lodge he changed to dry clothes. I don't think the incident was published about his falling out of the boat, no one commented, because it was a private place and nobody would talk about it, except the joshing at the lodge. Anyhow, a few days later I was invited to a judicial reception at the White House and Mr. Truman in the receiving line introduced me to Mrs. Truman and said, "Here's the man that pushed me out of the boat." She looked pretty hard at me for a minute, and then of course he and I both laughed and she saw it was all in fun, and she joined in the amusement. HESS: She saw that you really didn't push him out of the boat? JONES: Evidently. Luckily the Vice President was smart enough and quick enough to grab the sides of the boat. I don't know, you may want to strike this all out. HESS: Well, that's all right, he was an Army officer and not a naval officer, you know, so he... JONES: Yes, an officer in the Army during World War I, did I say Navy officer? HESS: No. I was just making a comment. He would know more how to conduct himself on land than he would in a boat, perhaps. JONES: I suppose so, but he usually took care of himself anywhere. I was getting along fine in War Food and even though it is a wearing job, I worked day and night at that thing and didn't get away often. I never gave out interviews because I wasn't running for anything and I didn't expect to. But, as soon as Mr. Truman became President, I submitted my letter of resignation personally. It was April the 12th when the President died, and Mr. Truman became President almost immediately. I wrote my resignation, took it over and submitted it personally. The President was very gracious. I said, "I think a new President ought to have the right to pick all the people that he would like to keep. I think official resignations should be customary at such a time." I said, "I am tendering my resignation as War Food Administrator so you may have freedom of choice." He said, "I thank you. I'll just put it here in my desk, but I want you to stay on, I have every confidence in you." The letter was never mentioned again. Then after the war was over in Europe, I decided -- and Jimmy Byrnes, who was out then and didn't know the setup over there well at that time, saw me -- he talked to me one night when he returned to Washington and said, "Well, I think you have said repeatedly that you want to go back as soon as the war in Europe is over, they are going to make some changes over there anyway, going to change their Secretary of Agriculture I think," and he said, "If I were you I would just send him my resignation." Which I did on May -- I think about May the 23rd, after the war in Europe was over on May the 8th, and I sent another letter of resignation to be effective June 29th, and he accepted it. I went back after the war in Europe was over as I had always planned to do. Did we cover my relationship with Mr. Truman after he became President? HESS: That's what we're up to right now. JONES: Would you rather make it some other day? HESS: I would. I think we're about to run down to the end of this reel of tape and so why don't we just make this for another day. JONES: All right that suits me fine. HESS: Good. [Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | Additional Jones Oral History Transcripts]
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