Paul W. Ager Oral History Interview, August 15, 1970, Number 2

Oral History Interview with
Paul W. Ager

Chief Budget Officer, Tennessee Valley Authority, 1940-47.

Hollywood, California
August 15, 1970 Number 2
By Dr. Charles W. Crawford

[Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed | Additional Ager Oral History Transcripts]

This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the Harry S. Truman Library. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word.

Numbers appearing in square brackets (ex. [45]) within the transcript indicate the pagination in the original, hardcopy version of the oral history interview.

This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the Harry S. Truman Library.

Opened December, 1981
Harry S. Truman Library
Independence, Missouri

[Top of the Page | Notices and Restrictions | Interview Transcript | List of Subjects Discussed | Additional Ager Oral History Transcripts]

Oral History Interview with
Paul W. Ager

Hollywood, California
August 15, 1970 Number 2
By Dr. Charles W. Crawford


DR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Ager, I suggest that we start now by dealing with some of the developments in TVA in which you had a part shortly before World War II and during the wartime period when I know you had some budgeting changes. Perhaps a good place to start would be at about the time of the Congressional investigation. Did that produce any changes in TVA?

MR. AGER: Yes. I'm sure that interrelated to the Congressional investigation was the beginning of the really strong general manager type setup in TVA. It may have preceded that a little bit, but it seemed to me that following the Congressional investigation there was less of the individual members of the Board of Directors specializing in one area and another director in another area. More of a united board approach to all areas of the program in TVA was followed by the Board relying on the General Manager to secure from the various specialized staff divisions the type of plans and materials required in


those fields. At least for me it seemed that life became simpler with the type of organization that we had after the Congressional investigation than it was before the Congressional investigation.

DR. CRAWFORD: To go back just a bit, how was the general manager's office established? That started first, didn't it, as coordinator?

MR. AGER: Yes, it did, under Mr. Bock, and then as I recall it, the Board of Directors employed some consultants some time about the time that this friction began to take a look at the TVA management organization. I believe there was a committee called the Draper Committee, or some such committee, that did indeed take a look at it, and it was not long after that, as I recall it, that John Blandford became the General Manager of TVA. And he continued to serve for a few years, and I can't be exact as to those years.

DR. CRAWFORD: Who was responsible for this committee being constituted?

MR. AGER: I can't tell you exactly, excepting that I think it was perhaps Mr. Lilienthal and Mr. Harcourt Morgan.


DR. CRAWFORD: Do you remember what people or what sort of people served on it?

MR. AGER: No, I don't besides the name Draper which is a name that I can't even complete. I don't even remember what his first name was.

DR. CRAWFORD: Was it a committee of outside consultants outside TVA personnel?

MR. AGER: Yes, outside consultants.

DR. CRAWFORD: At what point were you appointed Assistant General Manager?

MR. AGER: About the time that Mr. Blandford became General Manager of the TVA, or shortly thereafter.

DR. CRAWFORD: How were his duties assigned at first?

MR. AGER: Well, I don't recall exactly how they were defined although it seemed to me that they were perhaps in some resolution that was adopted by the Board of Directors. I just don't know. I don't remember.

DR: CRAWFORD: At that time did the General Manager have


operational responsibility for all areas of TVA?

MR. AGER: That was my understanding.

DR. CRAWFORD: Underneath the board, of course?

MR. AGER: Yes.

DR. CRAWFORD: What was your work primarily at that time, under the General Manager?

MR. AGER: My work was program planning, which included the system of project and program authorizations and the budgeting process this is the budget planning process, the getting of the money, not the detailed accounting for the money that was done by our Finance Department. I had all of the progress reporting, the coordination of that operation, including the preparation of the Highlights Report, which was under my jurisdiction. And then as we got into World War II they sort of tacked on to my office the business of securing scarce materials through the material control agencies in Washington, and the Washington representative that worked on this in Miss Owen's office was actually part of my staff.


DR, CRAWFORD: What size staff did you have at that time?

MR. AGER: I couldn't tell you exactly, but it was never more than ten to fifteen people at any time, as I recall it.

DR. CRAWFORD: Did you have difficulty, or rather I suppose -what sort of difficulty did you have getting critical materials during World War II?

MR, AGER: Just about the same sort of difficulty I imagine most agencies of the government had. It was simply a matter of getting into the right schedules at the right time with your requirements for material of various sorts, And, of course, copper was one of the hard items to get, and steel was a hard item to get; some classes of lumber were hard to come by. There is one incident that I recall distinctly because of the shortage of lumber in connection with one of our reservoir clearing operations where we were building what is now referred to as, I think, Cherokee Dam. We had to cut quite a few beautiful black walnut trees from the property and because of the shortage of lumber we had set up a sawmill to saw up the trees that were being cut in the reservoir to make the construction cribbing that we needed in connection with


the construction of the dam. And a Mr. Harold Smith, who was Director of the Bureau of the Budget at this particular time and who was formerly from Michigan, happened to visit the TVA and I took him out to this Cherokee Dam; we went by this sawmill operation, where he saw them sawing up walnut into crib size lumber and was very shocked that we were doing such a thing. It developed that Mr. Smith's hobby was woodworking and one of the things he was hurting for was some good, well cured walnut. So when we got back to Knoxville, I got in touch with the head of our forestry division, Mr. Richards, told him what my problem was and that the Director of the Bureau of the Budget was shocked at our using green walnut for cribbing out at Cherokee Dam and that he wanted some well cured walnut in connection with a boat that he was trying to build, and could he give me some suggestions? He said he certainly could, and a few days later I got the names and addresses of some farmers who had some cured walnut and proceeded to secure some walnut for the Director of the Bureau of the Budget, which I had shipped to him. But this is just a sidelight on the fact that the material problem was serious with us, but not devastating. I mean it never held up any project, and when the famous controversial dam on the--let's see, not the Little Tennessee . . . There's the


Holston, and what's Douglas Dam on?

DR. CRAWFORD: Is it south or north of the Holston?

MR. AGER: It's east, around the corner a little bit.

DR. CRAWFORD: Is there one on the French Broad or Watauga?

MR, AGER: Yes, the French Broad the dam or. the French Broad which is the dam that was to flood out the bottom land that belonged to the canning interests that were closely associated with Senator McKellar. When we made our commitment to build this dam in fifteen months and have power on the line, everybody thought we were crazy. No one had ever heard of building a dam in such a short period of time and especially of getting power on the line that fast. It just so happened that the generators that we had on order for the dam on the Holston were exactly the same size generators that were needed for the dam on the French Broad because the head of the two reservoirs was going to be essentially identical, so that what our engineers had come up with was a scheme of building this dam in a great hurry and of diverting one of the turbines and generators that we had already on order for the Holston Dam to go into the


powerhouse of the French Broad Dam, which produced firm power to make aluminum whereas in the other powerhouse, it would not have been firm power. As you recall, this is the project that brought on the bitter antagonism between Senator McKellar and the Tennessee Valley Authority, and it was strongly supported, the whole project, by the War Production Board and by Mr. Bill Batt, who was the specialist in the War Production Board who had to worry about power matters at that particular time and about aluminum supply at that particular time. It is my understanding that during the course of the opposition to this project by Senator McKellar that Senator McKellar even drew a knife on Mr. Batt. Now I don't care whether that's in the record or not, but that's the story that I heard.

DR. CRAWFORD: He did feel very strongly about it, certainly, considering the interests involved in the valley.

MR. AGER: An additional sidelight on this battle over the authorization of funds to start the construction of French Broad Dam, which is now called Douglas MacArthur Dam or something of that sort, is that after I had resigned from TVA to take my position with the Atomic Energy Commission, which I did


without any prior knowledge of Mr. Lilienthal because I was invited by Herb Marks to meet with Carroll Wilson, who was the first general manager of the Atomic Energy Commission. When I agreed to take this position I had no idea of what was going to come with respect to the confirmation of Mr. Lilienthal as Chairman of the Commission or Mr. Clapp as Chairman of the Tennessee Valley Authority or what was going to happen to me. But in the course of a bitter debate and controversy that ensued, I was described on the floor of the Senate along with Mr. Clapp and Mr. Lilienthal and Jim Rainey,another member of the Atomic Energy Commission as notorious Communists by Mr. McKellar.

DR. CRAWFORD: Did he offer anything in support of that allegation?

MR. AGER: None whatever, and Mr. Rainey's father, who was a very prominent Democrat politically in the State of Illinois, wrote to Mr. McKellar protesting this statement. Mr. McKellar wrote back saying that he was glad to hear that his son wasn't a Communist. That was all there was to that particular episode.

DR. CRAWFORD: Why did Mr. McKellar say that about you? I can understand why he didn't like Dave Lilienthal.


MR. AGER: I don't know. It just came out of the blue. Lilienthal was accused of bringing in some notorious Communist into the AEC, I guess, although my security clearance was the number one AEC clearance. There might be some relationship to the fact that my wife at one time was president of the New Mexico League of Women Voters who strongly supported certain civil service reforms that Senator McKellar was bitterly opposed to.

DR. CRAWFORD: Do you think his opposition was able to hamper TVA's development in any way?

MR. AGER: It didn't at the time, and I don't think it ever did. No. It certainly didn't delay the construction of the dam on the French Broad River very long.

DR. CRAWFORD: Well, you certainly did complete the work during World War II in an unusually rapid time. It didn't seem to have been slowed . . .

MR. AGER: There was another little sidelight that I can tell you about. In the House Appropriations Committee for several years a certain Mr. Dirksen of Illinois had been a sort of thorn in our side with critical


comments about our trying to extend navigation up the hillsides of Tennessee and things of this sort.

Along about the time that Watts Bar Dam and Steam Plant were about halfway completed I had a call one weekend from an assistant superintendent at Watts Bar project, reporting to me that a Mr. Dirksen, Congressman Dirksen of Illinois, with some friends from Sweetwater, Tennessee, had just left the project. And he said, "If I'm any judge of character, the man was impressed with what he saw."

Not long after that we appeared before the House Committee on Appropriations for another appropriation for a new fiscal year, and as we were gathering for the hearing in the House Appropriations Hearing Room, the TVA people seated at one side of the table and the Appropriations Committee people seated at the other and at the ends, in walked Congressman
Dirksen with a very large stack of papers under his arm. He leaned over and spoke to the chairman of the committee, who was Congressman Woodson of Virginia, and proceeded to his seat at the end of the table. Mr. Woodson convened the hearing and rather than following the usual procedure of calling on Mr. Lilienthal, who was then Chairman of the Board of


TVA, for a statement, he said, "Mr. Dirksen would like to make a statement before the hearing gets underway." Mr. Dirksen said, "Gentlemen, I'm awfully sorry that I'm not going to be able to stay here for this hearing. I have a conflicting engagement, but I have permission to say a few words about a visit I made to one of your projects. I was in Tennessee this last winter visiting friends at Sweetwater, Tennessee, and they took me over to visit the Watts Bar Project. I've been in the construction business most of my life, and this was the best managed job I ever saw. And I just wanted to tell you gentlemen that I was very, very favorably impressed. Thank you." This was off the record, unfortunately.

DR. CRAWFORD: Did you have any more criticism from Representative Dirksen?

MR. AGER: Never, and it wasn't long after that that he dropped out of